Gear up in Invermere

[DonutHole]

I think in a lot of ways "human factors" is a harmful paradigm.

We focus so much on root cause, but we do so in a vacuum for the most part. We isolate actions and behavior and plug them into nice clean little boxes that apply only to the incident in question. A slightly myopic view, as it leaves out behavior in general terms, and there is a lot of evidence to support the notion that behavior generally speaking can be an indicator to future behavior.

How often do these people lose their wallet? Keys? Tools for the job...

Often we ask these questions too late.

We all know the risk taking yahoo who is aluminum rain waiting for its condensation nucleus, and we all lament on when vs a matter of if, yet in these benign incidents, we fit everything into a tight little dozen factors of causation and call it a day?

I think it's fair to say that if the gear up landings are a result of behavior then it is a predictor of future behavior and is at least as possible in the future.

If somebody was caught out by circumstance I can see the argument some make of that incident translating into more situational awareness in the future.

Without context the arguments are hard to make one way or the other, but both are valid.

[pdw]

Why is he way over to the side?

If that's earlier today there's enough left crosswind, ... but sadly no wheels are out to steer when pointed towards the middle .

[iflyforpie]

There was a left cross wind today... but it happened last night.

We have quite a domed runway surface--one of the reasons we rarely have to plow in the winter--and that most likely is what pushed it to the side.

SSU and BPF... you'll be happy to note he didn't take off again (this time) but at the cost of most of the belly skins.

[DonutHole]

The prop looks like she's dinged up a bit too... is this a possible write off?

[iflyforpie]

Yes... it's a prop strike... so new prop and a teardown. Last one without doing any belly skins or antennas was 2/3 of the declared value... ...so it's going to be pretty close.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I find myself caring less and less, about more and more. Here come the excuses. Love it, but don't GARA!
Illya

[Rowdy]

The only thing an accident predicts is that somewhere, sometime, someone will use it to pump smoke up their own bum.

Another stupid comment.

I don't see how thats stupid! You have to know that someone will use any accident they were not involved in to showcase that they are superior and it can't and won't happen to them because they are better/wiser/quicker/bigger/stronger/smarter/etc.

Well.... we got it off the runway.... and most importantly without further damage to the aircraft...

Curious to know how? Crane? skid steer? forklift? wheel dollies?

That doesn't change the fact that pilots who have already had a significant incident/accident are significantly over represented in the accident statistics. Recognizing that and acknowledging the factors that led to the accident are important to not be a 2 (or more) time loser. However that does not seem to be happening.....

I think this is where we're crossing wires. Incidents like this gear up whoopsie are easily forgotten and washed over, as there are no consequences and thats what may lead to further accidents. No injuries, repairable or replaceable airplane (insured). Whereas a job loss, a loss of life or personal injury or significant hull loss will certainly not be repeated, and make for a much more cautious pilot.

I'll have a chat with two of my friends in the insurance underwriting world and see if I can't find any stats to support my 'theory' !

I also retract (heh) my previous comments questioning the mechanical aspect

[Rookie50]

I'd agree with BPF that those who did; are much more likely to again -- because the same habits / disciplines / behaviours are likely in play that caused the first accident. I don't see how an accident; although traumatic, necessarily lowers the risk factor for that pilot unless conscientious changes are made.

Not elevating myself here. I'm a low time, SE, non - professional pilot who flys IFR. As high a risk factor as there is. But I try never to be complacent of that fact and I say No a lot.

[iflyforpie]

Curious to know how? Crane? skid steer? forklift? wheel dollies?

Crane with a spreader bar and two straps. I would have liked a boat lift setup with a four point spreader, but beggars can't be choosers.

[azimuthaviation]

Yes... it's a prop strike... so new prop and a teardown. Last one without doing any belly skins or antennas was 2/3 of the declared value... ...so it's going to be pretty close.

But on the plus side the landing gear is in mint condition. Hardly used.

[PilotDAR]

because they are better/wiser/quicker/bigger/stronger/smarter/etc.

More afraid?

Heaven help me if I gear wrong a plane, you lot will never let me hear the end of it! I better have a monumentally original excuse, I have way too much experience to try a lame one!

I've helped it clean up a lot of wrecked planes, and a few wrecked friends, it's easy to remember the unhappiness of that, as long as I can remember not to do it myself. I always think "Configuration Assurance" - what's the next thing I'm going to do with this plane, and is it configured for it? It's not complicated.

The one time I did damage a plane fairly badly (ground accident, not flying), I repaired it myself - I remember the consequences of that!

[RatherBeFlying]

The usual excuses are sudden extra workload, unfamiliar airplane, lack of currency... Our glider club has 2 single seaters and one 2-seater with retractable gear along with private ships. We run about one gear-up a year plus we got a gear collapse.

We also have canopies coming loose.

Gear ups in gliders are cheaper on grass -- no engine teardown either

Don't ask me why I have a large green vinyl patch stuck next to the gear down position -- and florescent pink tape on the gear lever.

[pelmet]

Well.... we got it off the runway.... and most importantly without further damage to the aircraft...

Well done. One of the places where I rent aircraft had a 172RG lose an engine earlier this year and land on a road with some damage from a snowbank. I was told that so much more damage was caused by the recovery that it ended up being written off. No accident report to be made but I was initially told that there was some sort of a prop governor problem(and it was sent out for examination). A few months later I was told that more official sources have decided that it was likely carb ice. And there was an instructor on board.

[FenderManDan]

Maybe they had a bee in the cabin

[DonutHole]

That's actually no joke.

I opened the beer can in the 172 and I was met with many wasps... lesson learned.. if the beer can isn't open when I take off it doesn't get opened in flight.. that did happen on shirt final and I almost piled it in.

[iflyforpie]

Gear ups in gliders are cheaper on grass -- no engine teardown either

I wouldn't say that. I've seen some substantial damage to gliders after out landings. With lots of those aircraft easily exceeding the value of a light single... it wouldn't take much to push the price of repair beyond what a powered gear-up costs.

[RatherBeFlying]

I've seen some substantial damage to gliders after out landings.

Hitting a tree on an outlanding often writes off a glider.

But what does that have to do with a gear up?

[pdw]

Just that the price of a whole new glider is up there, into the neighbourhood of what a 'gear up' could cost.

[CFR]

I think the comment was with respect to a gear up landing on a normal approach on the home grass field. In that case I agree that the damage would likely be very minor, perhaps none.

Even with the gear down, it is not uncommon for an out-landing to take the doors off, but it is usually a simple-ish fix.

[pelmet]

A14P0172: A privately operated Cessna 177RG (C-GYVH) travelled from Springbank (CYBW) to Invermere (CAA8) and unintentionally landed with the wheels retracted. The aircraft remained on the runway. There was no fire and the pilot (1 POB) was not injured. The pilot alerted the Kamloops FIC of the event and a NOTAM was issued to close the runway. Aside from the lack of gear down indicator lights, when the engine power was reduced the pilot was not alerted by the landing gear position warning system as it had been inoperative for some time. This aircraft has been involved in 2 previous occurrences, both related to the landing gear; A08P0038 and A14W0082.

[GyvAir]

^ oi....

IFP.. after reading the above line about the gear warning being "inoperative for some time", I appreciate your perspective even more, concerning what I PMed you about the other day.

[iflyforpie]

The first incident was as a result of the nose gear failing to lock. He didn't have positive indication of the gear being down and just assumed that it was a faulty light.

Like I said, I didn't really do any maintenance on this aircraft except fix other people's mistakes. I was unaware of the state of the gear warning system in the aircraft.... ...though I know from experience that lots of times they don't work.

It is curious that after the previous incident that the gear system was not fully gone through. An annual inspection was performed. I have the logs in my office.... perhaps I should check to see if there are any outstanding defects.

[Rookie50]

The first incident was as a result of the nose gear failing to lock. He didn't have positive indication of the gear being down and just assumed that it was a faulty light.

Like I said, I didn't really do any maintenance on this aircraft except fix other people's mistakes. I was unaware of the state of the gear warning system in the aircraft.... ...though I know from experience that lots of times they don't work.

It is curious that after the previous incident that the gear system was not fully gone through. An annual inspection was performed. I have the logs in my office.... perhaps I should check to see if there are any outstanding defects.

I had a gear mirror installed. Its part of my check on every gear down. Highly recommended. Can see right main and nose gear.

[iflyforpie]

I've been thinking of getting one (or two) for the 337. I look for the mains all of the time... but that nose gear.

Did you use an STC or just stick a Canadian Tire one to some sheet metal?

[Big Pistons Forever]

For those pilots flying the later model high wing Cessna retracts, I teach that they test the gear warning horn as part of the prestart checklist. This check has two functions

1) Ensure the horns works, and

2) Reminds the pilot of what the horn sounds like.

If not fitted I also strongly advise they put a convex mirror on the wing. The easy way to do this is to make a sheet metal bracket which attaches to one of the underside wing inspection covers. AFAIK there is no STC for a mirror but i have never seen an AME care about a home made mirror solution. If yours does, get a new AME.