WestJet Mainline/Encore Hiring pool

[True North]

Already covered, thanks.

I just think it's a cheap cop-out to write off criticisms one doesn't agree with as "bitter failed applicants".

Try refuting the opinion, not the person.

You guys should get a room...

[lostaviator]

I'm more curious about what kind of experience a person who's recent posts prior to this rant were about career/company advice really has.

[Krimson]

looks like someone is sick of the sandbox!

Thanks for the rant, hypocrite!

[complexintentions]

Already covered, thanks.

I just think it's a cheap cop-out to write off criticisms one doesn't agree with as "bitter failed applicants".

Try refuting the opinion, not the person.

You guys should get a room...

About as strong an argument as "whatever". Pretty much what I expected.

I'm done on this thread, I enjoy a good debate but it's clear it won't happen here. Too bad.

[Benwa]

"edited the part where I was very wrong ! "


Westjet has been profitable every quarter for over 9 years in a row... I'm pretty sure they don't need any advice on how to run their business.

[cv990]

Hmm..... Very interesting reading here. Just curious about the sim eval thing. I did one at Jazz. They have quite a few options for sim evals, although the scheduling can be really tight. They can do them in Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal. Their Q400 sim is in (CAE) Montreal, and for now it is the one they use (although they sometimes use flight safety or CAE Toronto). Encore uses Flight Safety Toronto. And the trainers are FS as well (although rides are done in-house). The problem with doing sim evals is, you need instructors to do them as well as sim slots. These aren't really available at the moment, not for the amount they would need to put all candidates through. Jazz has far more trainers and sim slots available (and even then it can be really tight). Encore has put out a request for purchase for their own simulator for the Q400. That might help.

But doing sim evals has a huge time/cost associated with it. And the "time" component is a real killer. When do you do sim evals? And with whom? And how many can you reasonably do in the amount of simulator time available? It can be a logistical nightmare, and I'm thinking that WJ/WJE just don't have the means at the moment to take on a project that large. Glad I don't have to schedule stuff like that!!

Ah well I could be wrong and totally out to lunch, but it is just a thought...

[True North]

About as strong an argument as "whatever". Pretty much what I expected.

I'm done on this thread, I enjoy a good debate but it's clear it won't happen here. Too bad.

Sorry to disappoint you complexintentions.

HB777LW's position is untenable and verging on hysterical ("Further, it will be that day when one of you winners puts that 29 million dollar plane to the side of the calgary tower on an imc night..."). I mean, really? The fact that you want to defend her/him is a bit surprising and quite frankly not worthy of debate.

I'm an old guy, it was quite a number of years ago that an impudent whelp I was flying with called me a "grizzled old veteran" and I've been thoroughly enjoying retirement for several years now after 35 years in the industry. If for nothing else, out of deference for my advanced years allow me to offer you one small piece of advice. You're obviously an intelligent guy and you can be quite eloquent when you want to be. If you truly want to engage in an honest debate, avoid telling your opponent that their opinion is "crap". That's not debating that's just being belligerent and will only shut down the debate, or elicit responses in kind.

Until next time.

[True North]

Hmm..... Very interesting reading here. Just curious about the sim eval thing. I did one at Jazz. They have quite a few options for sim evals, although the scheduling can be really tight. They can do them in Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal. Their Q400 sim is in (CAE) Montreal, and for now it is the one they use (although they sometimes use flight safety or CAE Toronto). Encore uses Flight Safety Toronto. And the trainers are FS as well (although rides are done in-house). The problem with doing sim evals is, you need instructors to do them as well as sim slots. These aren't really available at the moment, not for the amount they would need to put all candidates through. Jazz has far more trainers and sim slots available (and even then it can be really tight). Encore has put out a request for purchase for their own simulator for the Q400. That might help.

But doing sim evals has a huge time/cost associated with it. And the "time" component is a real killer. When do you do sim evals? And with whom? And how many can you reasonably do in the amount of simulator time available? It can be a logistical nightmare, and I'm thinking that WJ/WJE just don't have the means at the moment to take on a project that large. Glad I don't have to schedule stuff like that!!

Ah well I could be wrong and totally out to lunch, but it is just a thought...

cv990,

You are not out to lunch, you are bang on the money and very well stated. Add questionable value to the logistical challenges and substantial costs, (we really should probably start a new thread for this) and it just doesn't make sense.

[complexintentions]

True North,

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the value of sim evals, but you are correct that it isn't helpful to reduce someone's opinion to the word "crap". Fair enough, and I apologize. I can only suggest that my comment was a response in kind to your equally dismissive statements. There are reasons virtually every major operator in the world uses the sim as an integral part of the selection process, and given the time and expense involved I don't think it's done lightly. Cost/benefit analyses have been done and concluded that it's worth the trouble. Hence I took exception to your claiming your own experience as a reference.

Why do you consider HB777LW's position untenable? He may state the extreme case, but an incident/accident IS actually the logical outcome of allowing weaker candidates to get through. (Am I really explaining this to an industry veteran?!) Or did I just imagine the Colgan accident? I defend HB777LW's position because I happen to agree with it, and I admit to enjoying his bombastic writing style because the complete lack of political correctness is a like blast of fresh air in a stale classroom. Maybe I've lived outside of Canada too long but it just seems to become more and more insufferably stifled and prissy and whiny in the industry as time goes on. More educated, but less intelligent. Plus natural bias will have me giving more credence to another expat, I guess.

Benwa,

Dear God no, I never worked at Canada 30,000 aka JetsGo. No way I'd ever go near that fool Leblanc's schemes.

cv990 is bang on. Encore doesn't use the sim eval, because they can't, really. But it's nonsense to say it wouldn't be better if they could. That's the point I don't agree with. Hiring for an operational position based on asking a few "Tell me a time when..." questions is pretty weak. Talk is cheap but it's extremely difficult to fake competence in the sim.

[True North]

complexintentions,

I come to this site purely for the entertainment value. I post occasionally, mostly when I have nothing else to do, and then head off and do other things. I seldom get involved in any lengthy discussions because I generally can’t be bothered to take the time. You have offered a thoughtful and reasoned response and it deserves an equally thoughtful reply, so I am fitting you in between golf games. You must trust me on this point, retirement is everything it’s cracked up to be. But first some housekeeping.

Thank you for the apology but it is entirely unnecessary. I was not the least offended by your remark and was simply making a point, which you took. And I was being entirely dismissive, not of you but of HB777LW who now would like us to believe he is a woman. I’m prepared to play along. Better be careful, I think you might have a fangirl there, hence my “get a room” remark which was also uncalled for. My turn to apologize.

We are having two separate discussions here so I will address them individually.

Why do I think HB777LW’s position is untenable? I’ll also add to this discussion why I believe HB777LW is a failed candidate for Encore. The initial argument which she chimed in on was that multi PIC time is, in her words, a “useless” qualifier for a candidate’s assessment while at the same time failing to acknowledge or even recognize that it is one part of a matrix which is only a part of the entire hiring process.

I have gone back to try and re-read her bombastic posts, it is just painful. But I struggled through and again was hit by all sorts of postulations which she presents as fact, all of which are in fact just an opinion, and in some cases entirely wrong. All her arguments are presented, in my opinion, from the perspective of a relatively low time pilot with minimal - if any - command time. She still doesn’t know what she doesn’t know. Many of her statements are simply laughable. For example:

“There are a lot of 704 and 705 F/O's that don't have much mpic but can make "good decisions" in complex scenarios that otherwise a navajo driver couldn't identify if their life depended on it.”

Or this one:

“if you king air captains think you are more qualified for a Q400 F/O job, I invite you to a command assessment course with a 10 year AC 777 FO who is doing the same thing for his/her captaincy, let's see who washes out of their command assessment first. The q400 command assessment on a King air captain, or the f/o with time on type doing command assessment on their type. Then we will repeat the same thing for you, but this time you are dealing with a 4000 hour, 3000 hour Dash time F/O. Both times the F/O's will statistically score a better assessment than you ever could.”

Really hard to read but again, an opinion presented as fact but laughable either way.

I found this following statement to be very telling, and the quotation marks are HB777LW’s trying to attribute the comment to DaveP:

"Many of the guys and gals simply aren't ready, so we are implementing a matrix." That means, we effed up and should actually of hired relevant experience for a start up airline. If not that, at least people with aptitude to do the job properly. Such a rookie mistake for such a veteran management team…

Here is the actual quote from DaveP:

“The reason for the direct entry posting is because the upgrades are now faster than planned. Basically upgrade assessments are taking place in initial training and many guys and gals simply aren’t ready.”

“As part of the risk assessment that was done - an internal matrix is now in place before you can upgrade:

Total Time / DHC-8-400 or similar Transport Category Aircraft *
4500 / 500
4000 / 500
3500 / 750
3000 / 1000
2500 / 1250
2000 / 1500”

This is a blatant attempt to try to support a tenuous position by inventing an argument and misquoting. The first sentence in DaveP’s statement is pretty clear, upgrades are coming faster than planned – not an unheard of thing in a start up - and the referenced matrix is for upgrades, not hiring.

Things take a turn for the worse when she decides to get personal with references to “the iguana” and these bold statements:

“As a result, many of your class acts are leaving for better ventures.”

First I’ve heard there has been any kind mass exodus, and I’m still fairly well connected.

“You seriously need some good luck or good PR to cover the shit show that is about to happen in the next few years with the colour teal on the side of your planes.”

Then there are other statements about being “fisted” by the company and other nonsense that just scream disenchantment. Why is anyone so passionate about a company they have never had any desire to work for?

The above is just a small sampling. So all in all, too much rhetoric, too many unsubstantiated statements of fact and too many outright false statements to be taken seriously. Add the overabundance of emotion and you get a disgruntled failed candidate.

All just my not so humble opinion.


Now on to why sim evals are not good value, and I’m fully prepare to agree to disagree.

I will grant you up front that in a perfect world a sim eval coupled with a rigorous interview would be part of the hiring process. In that perfect world all airlines would have to do them to create a level playing field and while we’re dreaming, there would be at least 2 if not 3 sessions to really shake down the candidate. But it’s not a perfect world and sim evals are very expensive. So far, your only argument in favour is that a lot of established carriers do them so they must be beneficial. May I also assume it was part of the hiring process for your current position? I would caution against putting a lot of weight on the lemming-like adherence to established practices at legacy airlines, which is akin to saying, “we’ve always done it like that” or “that’s what everyone else is doing.” Any shrewd businessman cringes when he or she (deference to HB777LW) hears those statements.

I was part of a sim eval program for about 18 months and as I stated before we did not see any appreciable change in the caliber of candidates or failure rates in training before or after the program. It is possible to evaluate things like a candidate’s ability and willingness to learn, decision making and even CRM skills during a sim eval. Contrary to what you seem to believe, it is also possible to evaluate those things during a well conducted behavioral based interview. The one thing you can’t evaluate outside the sim is basic hands and feet flying skills. But even those are tricky. Some people, especially if they have previous simulator experience can appear more skilled where a candidate with no previous sim experience might seem less skilled. Just one more hour in the simulator for the inexperienced candidate could tell a completely different story. There are just too many intangibles to get a really clear picture. A couple of personal examples that I experienced:

Three guys all of whom I worked with at previous employer took sim evals for new jobs with an Asian carrier;

Candidate A had very good hands and feet, I would say well above average. He was also the biggest dick you would ever encounter on the flightdeck whose idea of CRM was “I’ll command and you’ll respond”. He was also looking for the job because he had been fired by our employer for sexual harassment. He knew how to play the game and he got the job.

Candidate B had average hands and feet, was the nicest guy you would ever want to work with but couldn’t make a decision when literally, his life depended on it. He ended up a career FO at our company. He got the job.

Candidate C is still maybe one of the best pilots I ever encountered, a star in all aspects of the game. Didn’t get past the sim eval.

Candidate D is not even a pilot, he’s my neighbor and is an ATC controller. He plays Flight Sim on has computer all the time. He really wanted to get in a simulator so I managed to get him a few minutes of seat time. He flew it like he had thousands of hours on type, which in a way I guess he did.

The bottom line is no system is infallible and it’s possible for a weak candidate to have a good day and really ace a sim eval and conversely your all star could just have a bad day and not make it through.

cv990 very clearly stated the logistical challenges of conducting sim evals and coupled with the costs, again in my opinion, they aren’t worth it.

Since this is a thread about WestJet/Encore I will put it that WestJet is a very successful airline that to my knowledge has never done sim evals and, despite HB7777LW’s assertions of their questionable hiring practices, they have an exemplary safety record.

They must be doing something right.

FORE!

[brooks]

[JetAjunkie]

Well...

... That didn't take long to go off the rails.....LOL!

[leftoftrack]

That did escalate rather quickly. Brick did I see you kill a guy with a trident?

[Johnny#5]

Sim evals are good for some candidates as well (this was probably mentioned earlier)....I know a couple pilots who are poor in an interview but they're solid people and great in the airplane and sim. They would get passed over based on some of the silly questions asked by HR rather than how they conduct themselves in the sim with a crew member.

[mattzar]

Looking for an update:

Anyone know of any upcoming ground school dates for Encore? How long have others been in the pool before getting the call?

[7dirty7]

Does Encore actually have a pool of candidates or are they training them as they get hired?

[Flyerboy]

They have a pool of candidates

[BingBong]

The waiting lounge at Customs and the Unemployment office doesn't constitute a pool

[scraps]

The waiting lounge at Customs and the Unemployment office doesn't constitute a pool

I wouldn't call Jazz the Unemployment Office (yet).

And I don't think we've hired anybody from outside of Canada yet, though we've hired some Canadians from foreign carriers - but not a lot. Maybe a few percent of who we've hired.

[Reaz]

Does anyone know if WJ Encore is hiring any DEC in 2015? The website only indicates F/O position.

[LAX]

By the sounds of things there will likely be no more DECs hired. From here on in only FO positions.

[flyer 1492]

Is the "guaranteed minimum" rolling back to 70 hours January 01, 2015?

[SundayDriver]

Is the "guaranteed minimum" rolling back to 70 hours January 01, 2015?

No. The 80 hour minimum has been extended until mid 2015 for now

[Benwa]

Anyone knows when the ground schools start in 2015 at Mainline? How many are planned this year?

Happy New Year!

Ben

[KK7]

Last I heard the Encore plan was to have one class per month, usually 10 per class. Subject to change of course.