Satellite ads-b vs terrestrial?

[sky_hi]

Hey guys, I have been reading that nav canada is in a partnership with iridium to offer ads-b via satellite.

How would this compare to the system set up with towers in the USA? Has there been any speculation as to costs for a general Aviation end-user?

[ahramin]

My understanding is that the Aerion system will have 1090 MHz receivers only, so all the cheap 978 MHz solutions that are out there for small GA aircraft to meet the US NextGen requirement in 2020 will not work with the satellites. Same thing for the Hudson Bay area, 1090 only.

That being said, I found a mode S 1090 transponder with ADS-B that would run off my EFIS for less than 3k the other day, so if you're planning on flying your unpressurized GA airplane across the north Atlantic it's doubtful that adding 1090 would be your largest expense.

[sky_hi]

I thought the idea for nav canada to be interested in the satellite based ads-b was to avoid building all the towers that the USA did as most of Canada is sparse it would not be cost effective.

Is the satellite based ads-b only for the use of big Airlines and once again general Aviation gets the short straw?

Maybe we can get COPA to lobby on our behalf?!

[ahramin]

NavCanada has already built all the towers it would make sense to build in Northern Canada and has good coverage over the high travel routes. The only exception is the North Atlantic, as it would be expensive to build towers in the middle of the ocean. This is the reason for the satellite coverage. It really doesn't make sense to include 978 MHz for the one or two unpressurized GA aircraft traversing oceanic airspace that happen to have 978 ADS-B instead of 1090.

As I said, if it's that important to a particular GA aircraft, the price of a mode S transponder is not exorbitant.

[sky_hi]

I apologize for being a little uneducated on this subject and don't quite get why you keep talking about trans ocean flying...

I am referring to the near future of ads-b like coverage that the USA has up in running right now, but for most of Canadian airspace. (with like traffic awareness and weather, etc)

Is something like using a stratus and a Ipad with Foreflight in cards for Canadians general Aviation pilots?

[ahramin]

Ah I see. The ADS-B that you are referring to - cheap solutions using ipads and the like and providing goodies like TIS-B and ADS-B in (traffic and weather) - works on a different frequency (978 MHz) than Mode S transponder based ADS-B (1090 MHz). It only works in the US, and only meets the ADS-B mandate coming up in 2020 for aircraft flying below 18 000'. As far as I know no one else in the world uses that standard. It was designed to entice GA aircraft to equip, and equip early for the upcoming mandate.

The satellite ADS-B is to cover the NAT tracks and other remote airspace where ground stations aren't feasable. The business case is to allow more traffic at better altitudes in the NAT tracks. Canada isn't mandating ADS-B in domestic airspace the way the US is. There's no incentive or business case for NavCanada to add 978 MHz capability to the ground stations, let alone the satellites.

[Pop n Fresh]

It has been sometime beyond a decade since I read about it so I might be mixing it up but, is ads-b the transponder that does some two way GPS positioning with GPS between the unit and ATC?

How long are we away from transponders with GPS capabilities that will include spot type functions and Bluetooth to feed information to your tablet? Will they still be mode S or another letter.
Then the installed unit could use a standard frequency from the satellite and tablets can do whatever they will do to utilize the accurate GPS info via Bluetooth. Tablets and the navigation systems will evolve into whatever they will become.

Seems logical to me but in ten years tablets might seem ridiculous and primitive.

[Meatservo]

Seems logical to me but in ten years tablets might seem ridiculous and primitive.

I hope not... what's the next step, implants? Not for this boy. I don't have any hats that would look good with an antenna.

[Pop n Fresh]

Seems logical to me but in ten years tablets might seem ridiculous and primitive.

I hope not... what's the next step, implants? Not for this boy. I don't have any hats that would look good with an antenna.

Tough to say. Jump in a time machine and without one tell your 1995 self about your smartphone. He'd tell you, "Dream on and give me some stanly cup outcomes for playing sports select."

[Meatservo]

Well, I think my 1995 self would have trouble with the "touch screen" idea, how they've invented a hard transparent substance that can FEEL you touching it.

Other than that, what's to tell?

"They've put a telephone, a two-way radio, a typewriter, a computer, a TV and a walkman into the same box and figured out how to make it really, really small. The computer has enough memory to store all your maps and songs and there's a cool operating system that uses pictures and stuff on a screen instead of typing commands. Video games have gotten a lot better."

I'd have believed that. I"d probably have been confused about how come it doesn't have a fold-out blade and a screwdriver built into it as well. The touch-screen though, they'd burn you at the stake for being a witch if you'd showed up with that in 1995.

[Pop n Fresh]

It can't feel you, it's just really small wires. Your finger completes a circuit.

I like to tell my kids how a telephone used to be hard wired. They think I'm funny.

So how much does it cost to get the film in this phone developed?

It's ok, I take the magic for granted too. I'm certainly paying attention to how far it has changed in the last decade. I'm guessing it should change possibly more in the next.

My Moto G does voice commands. I'm too old to try that.

I like the "smart multi tool" concept, we might see that.

[all_ramped_up]

It's almost there already. I can hook an RTL2832U USB SDR dongle to my Smartphone through USB and get a live updated map showing ADS-B equipped aircraft within usually about 50-150nm.

Sure it's useless for airborne use, but for us Nerds it's pretty cool stuff.

[Louis]

You say useless for airborne use... How about a tablet with some moving map thrown in the mix? (No idea if suitable software exists yet.) Not a certified solution, but certainly no worse than those tiny LCD Zaon boxes.

I don't want to highjack the thread, but I figure this might interest you as well. I got to listen to a very interesting presentation about ADS-B and how it's got serious shortcomings security wise. (CSIS and CSEC were there, unfortunately I don't believe NavCanada, ICAO or TC had anyone.) I don't know if this specific talk will make its way to Youtube, but the same speaker's bit at Defcon is available.