Missing north of Peterborough

[Rookie50]

Night VFR is something that is peculiar to North America. In most of the world, to fly at night you need to be IFR.

We should treat night flying like IFR. Competency in flying by instruments, minimum safety elevations, navigation aids with backups, alternate destinations, and generous fuel reserves. We also need to respect the weather even more than Day VFR... no frontal or convective activity, no precip, high visibility, no low cloud, and a large temperature-dewpoint spread.

Slam525i makes a very good point about leaving the flight school nest and going on your own. I remember experiencing that when I first started to walk airplanes for owners who were too busy to fly them. Even still... I am in a completely different mindset taking a private aircraft vs a company plane out... much more vigilant and far more timid than I already am.

I agree with Pie that Night VFR is so close, and sometimes worse, than day IMC, as to be considered at such, if not by the regulators, by the PIC. Clear night over brightly lighted flat terrain? Lovely VFR flight. Hazy night under an overcast near water or unlighted terrain, never mind any precip? Effectively IMC. Totally different but no way to regulate that. I like an hour minimum daytime, 90 minutes at night / and or remote areas for fuel reserve....double the reg's....

[pelmet]

If anything positive can come out of this , it is for low time pilots to recognize how dangerous x-country night flying, single engine VFR is.. No....ifs, ands, or buts...it is dangerous.

Not true at all. I have done a lot of single engine night VFR with nothing that stands out as having been a problem. Sure, there is some increased risk for certain situations but what is dangerous is the decision making made by some people. Especially when it comes to understanding their own limitations combined with the specific aircraft's limitations combined with the specific factors that are expected to be encountered that night.

[Illya Kuryakin]

If anything positive can come out of this , it is for low time pilots to recognize how dangerous x-country night flying, single engine VFR is.. No....ifs, ands, or buts...it is dangerous.

Not true at all. I have done a lot of single engine night VFR with nothing that stands out as having been a problem. Sure, there is some increased risk for certain situations but what is dangerous is the decision making made by some people. Especially when it comes to understanding their own limitations combined with the specific aircraft's limitations combined with the specific factors that are expected to be encountered that night.

Are you a low time pilot Pelmet? You did notice Trey's comment is aimed at low time pilots. It is dangerous. I'm happy that you have had no issues in darkness. Hope that remains to be the case. Do not, however advise low time pilots that it's anywhere the same ball game as day flying. It is, essentially IFR in many areas across Canada.
Illya

[RatherBeFlying]

Can somebody explain just how another engine would have helped these two handle low fuel and disorientation?

[pelmet]

If anything positive can come out of this , it is for low time pilots to recognize how dangerous x-country night flying, single engine VFR is.. No....ifs, ands, or buts...it is dangerous.

Not true at all. I have done a lot of single engine night VFR with nothing that stands out as having been a problem. Sure, there is some increased risk for certain situations but what is dangerous is the decision making made by some people. Especially when it comes to understanding their own limitations combined with the specific aircraft's limitations combined with the specific factors that are expected to be encountered that night.

Are you a low time pilot Pelmet? You did notice Trey's comment is aimed at low time pilots. It is dangerous. I'm happy that you have had no issues in darkness. Hope that remains to be the case. Do not, however advise low time pilots that it's anywhere the same ball game as day flying. It is, essentially IFR in many areas across Canada.
Illya

Then he should have said..."If anything positive can come out of this , it is for low time pilots to recognize how dangerous x-country night flying, single engine VFR is.. No....ifs, ands, or buts...it is dangerous for the low time pilot" .....to make that clear.

But for reasonably experienced pilots it is not.

[esp803]

In the Yukon, there is NO WAY I'd ever fly night VFR. Ever. Doesn't matter how many engines I have. Nothing beats the blackhole effect in the mountains. F*&$ that.

I'll take the Van' IFR at night, no problem. Never Never Never VFR though...

E

[lownslow]

...it is dangerous for the low time pilot" .....to make that clear.

But for reasonably experienced pilots it is not.

Night VFR is equally dangerous for all pilots, it's just that experience gives you respect for that danger. A more experienced pilot simply has the tools to mitigate the risk better.

[Lost in Saigon]

...it is dangerous for the low time pilot" .....to make that clear.

But for reasonably experienced pilots it is not.

Night VFR is equally dangerous for all pilots, it's just that experience gives you respect for that danger. A more experienced pilot simply has the tools to mitigate the risk better.

Even an experienced pilot faces additional risk at night. Single Engine Night VFR is a always more of a gamble than Day VFR because you lose the ability to pick a safe landing area in case of engine failure.

[FenderManDan]

I am not trying to advocate for the "BadMan" but he did write a bunch of times about the dangers of night VFR and requirements for temp/dew point and the black hole around Algonquin park and sparsely settled areas. Wish people would read more about that kind of stuff.

This seems to be get-home-itis, which did in the famous "Jr". PDM fails a lot under the pressure. Read the accident reports folks.

On the other side note in regards to the FTU and passing this knowledge, they are unfortunately bound by TC paperwork and business needs/liabilities and there is not a lot that can be done there it seems. Low timers will have to learn from others more experienced on their own time.

I have another caution example to tell. Day MVFR discussion is often limited if the weather drops and you are in radar control to get you to the airport. No one ever talks of actually flying in it while you are navigating on vectors and what are the dangers. Get into the haze or fog with no horizon and you will see that is it way worse than the actual solid IMC. Your eyes bouncing from the instruments to the visible ground or worse water, your head turning all around you will get you disoriented much faster.

[tonyhunt]

Get into the haze or fog with no horizon and you will see that is it way worse than the actual solid IMC. Your eyes bouncing from the instruments to the visible ground or worse water, your head turning all around you will get you disoriented much faster.

I do not enjoy flying during the transition through sunset to darkness after a long day, especially over the trees or water. The gradual transition to no horizon is subtle, especially when you are tired. The last flight of the day returning from out West means stopping for customs and a break in the Sault, waiting until true night before continuing home to Ottawa.

[clear_blue]

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new ... lane-crash

Looks like the names have been released.

[davecessna]

As someone who often flies between Montreal and Toronto: USE THE 401, IT'S A GIANT LIGHT CHAIN THAT POINTS TO YOUR DESTINATION.

[RatherBeFlying]

Real world night flying tips

http://airfactsjournal.com/2014/02/nigh ... g-element/

[Rookie50]

As someone who often flies between Montreal and Toronto: USE THE 401, IT'S A GIANT LIGHT CHAIN THAT POINTS TO YOUR DESTINATION.

This is a very wise idea unless you are IR rated and current, have an AP, and preferably both.

[cap41]

As someone who often flies between Montreal and Toronto: USE THE 401, IT'S A GIANT LIGHT CHAIN THAT POINTS TO YOUR DESTINATION.

This is a wise idea period!

[clear_blue]

As someone who often flies between Montreal and Toronto: USE THE 401, IT'S A GIANT LIGHT CHAIN THAT POINTS TO YOUR DESTINATION.

Everyone's saying that this is a wise idea, and I'm really not disagreeing, but I feel it needs the disclaimer that it wholly depends on the time you are flying at. I've been between Peterborough and Ottawa many a time, and at 2-3am... you can't see the 401 (same once you get west of London)... in fact, at that time, whole towns almost seemingly disappear. I personally find 4am to be the worst (3-5), as no one seems to be flying around, people on the ground aren't really awake, and ATC always seems to sound as if they are half asleep. Just my opinion though.

[Canoehead]

I personally find 4am to be the worst (3-5), as no one seems to be flying around, people on the ground aren't really awake, and ATC always seems to sound as if they are half asleep. Just my opinion though.

I would have to say that's one of the more absurd posts I've read on this forum.

[davecessna]

As someone who often flies between Montreal and Toronto: USE THE 401, IT'S A GIANT LIGHT CHAIN THAT POINTS TO YOUR DESTINATION.

Everyone's saying that this is a wise idea, and I'm really not disagreeing, but I feel it needs the disclaimer that it wholly depends on the time you are flying at. I've been between Peterborough and Ottawa many a time, and at 2-3am... you can't see the 401 (same once you get west of London)... in fact, at that time, whole towns almost seemingly disappear. I personally find 4am to be the worst (3-5), as no one seems to be flying around, people on the ground aren't really awake, and ATC always seems to sound as if they are half asleep. Just my opinion though.

My suggestion was in context of the incident: his overall route was Buttonville to St-Hubert. Instead of mucking around in buttf*#$ nowhere, he could have flown down to Oshawa and met up with the 401 there.

I once did a night VFR flight to Pembroke from Montreal and learned the lesson that flying in complete darkness in unfamiliar terrain makes the first lesson of xcountry flying extraordinarily difficult: always be looking for landing spots in the event of engine failure.

[Shiny Side Up]

Everyone's saying that this is a wise idea, and I'm really not disagreeing, but I feel it needs the disclaimer that it wholly depends on the time you are flying at. I've been between Peterborough and Ottawa many a time, and at 2-3am... you can't see the 401 (same once you get west of London)... in fact, at that time, whole towns almost seemingly disappear. I personally find 4am to be the worst (3-5), as no one seems to be flying around, people on the ground aren't really awake, and ATC always seems to sound as if they are half asleep. Just my opinion though.

If you're a private pilot flying somewhere at four in the morning (especially in the winter), you're probably at the end of a spectacularly bad chain of decisions.

[PilotDAR]

flying somewhere at four in the morning (especially in the winter)

'Could be, though I was having a late dinner in Florida one evening, having left near Toronto in the 150, not much after that time same day. But, yes, if you're on your way home at that time of the morning, it was probably not a result of the best plan.

The Ottawa to Toronto route, even via Peterborough, can still be unnervingly dark, even on a nice night. You've really got to think the risks through carefully. You could easily be 45 minutes of flying from any certain help, that's a long time when things are going wrong....

[RatherBeFlying]

Ottawa - Peterborough is mostly over shield country ; so it's a tossup between putting it into trees, water, rock, most likely swamp if the engine quits. In the summer, the mosquitoes might get together to hoist you out

But engine failure rarely kills pilots in the dark. The big night time killers are disorientation and CFIT.

[Shiny Side Up]

'Could be, though I was having a late dinner in Florida one evening,

Well if you're getting away from winter, then by all means...

But seriously, I don't think the issues of flying late at night are stressed much with private pilots. You don't have to be a commercial pilot to be fatigued, but there are other issues as well. Imagining you did have any sorts of problems, its going to be a lot longer for someone to come looking for you or offer any assistance. In winter, on clear nights the temperature drops a lot and is coldest just before dawn. Lots of ways to get into trouble even when you do get back on the ground and no one's going to know or care until daylight. I can say that from experience.

[PilotDAR]

I can say that from experience.

Oooo Not me

Lots of ways to get into trouble even when you do get back on the ground and no one's going to know or care until daylight.

Yup! I carry a lot of stuff in the plane, in case of that! I look at the photo of the munched 150, I think, if they had survived, would they have been prepared for a cold overnight stay, even uninjured? People laugh at the load of stuff I carry around, but it sure is reassuring.

On the other hand, a buddy of mine put a Cherokee Dakota into the trees 90 miles from Goose Bay. He had the full survival kit, but was pinned in the crushed plane, and spent all night not being able to get to it (in the baggage compartment). Lesson? Put it where you can get at it from your seated position if you're by yourself.

[CFR]

I can say that from experience.

Oooo Not me

Lots of ways to get into trouble even when you do get back on the ground and no one's going to know or care until daylight.

Yup! I carry a lot of stuff in the plane, in case of that! I look at the photo of the munched 150, I think, if they had survived, would they have been prepared for a cold overnight stay, even uninjured? People laugh at the load of stuff I carry around, but it sure is reassuring.

On the other hand, a buddy of mine put a Cherokee Dakota into the trees 90 miles from Goose Bay. He had the full survival kit, but was pinned in the crushed plane, and spent all night not being able to get to it (in the baggage compartment). Lesson? Put it where you can get at it from your seated position if you're by yourself.

Some folks recommend carrying the basics on your person (in a flying jacket, vest?) in case the aircraft you are egressing from is on fire!

[Rookie50]

I can say that from experience.

Oooo Not me

Lots of ways to get into trouble even when you do get back on the ground and no one's going to know or care until daylight.

Yup! I carry a lot of stuff in the plane, in case of that! I look at the photo of the munched 150, I think, if they had survived, would they have been prepared for a cold overnight stay, even uninjured? People laugh at the load of stuff I carry around, but it sure is reassuring.

On the other hand, a buddy of mine put a Cherokee Dakota into the trees 90 miles from Goose Bay. He had the full survival kit, but was pinned in the crushed plane, and spent all night not being able to get to it (in the baggage compartment). Lesson? Put it where you can get at it from your seated position if you're by yourself.

That's excellent. I have a pretty good kit myself. I keep it strapped in the back seat -- should move it to the front when alone. Gotta compare lists with you one day, see what I might be missing.