College of pilots

[Impact]

One thing is for certain. I will never join this organization.

The last thing I want is more bureaucracy thrust into my life and aviation as a whole. Wasted dues on an entire framework of people who make their living creating conflict and building empires within the organization. It's nothing more than a business model to suck dues from pilot members.

[timel]

I know this guy, who knows this other guy, who told him a story that he'd read on a washroom wall.....
Okay fine. What a crock!

Pfff... That is your response?

Back it up with names and dates. You can't, and you know it, so I'm calling bull shit.

Want the social security number too?
I can't wait for T-K to correct me.

News Flash for ya Time. The ONLY people hurting pilot wages in Canada, are Canadian pilots willing to work for handouts.
Illya

Help them help ourselves.
Let the College have the time they need. From what I see they seem to have gone around Canada, surveyed a bit. Don't see it as negative. If in 2 years we are still turning around the pot... Than ... We'll see.

When it comes to pilot associations or syndicates, ALPA won't bother accepting small airlines of 55 pilots, out of that... Honestly it is crap. National Syndicate? Like teacher said unlikely to happen.

[7ECA]

Seems to me that what we as an industry need, is a group that is already established, and widely accepted as being credible, to take up the torch for our cause. Be it higher wages, a pay scale, insurance, hour requirements, getting rid of TFW pilots, etc.

The only solution I can see, is a union. But there are plenty of people out there who hear that word, and begin to clutch their purses like a bunch of old women, and scream about the pink hoards...

[timel]

Seems to me that what we as an industry need, is a group that is already established, and widely accepted as being credible, to take up the torch for our cause. Be it higher wages, a pay scale, insurance, hour requirements, getting rid of TFW pilots, etc.

The only solution I can see, is a union. But there are plenty of people out there who hear that word, and begin to clutch their purses like a bunch of old women, and scream about the pink hoards...

Actually seems that France is having most of the pilots under the same union flag (32 companies) http://www.snpl.com
They even have instructors and helicopter pilots as well. I did not know that. So yes it is not impossible to have it done in Canada. Maybe it doesn't have to be all the companies either for a start.

[Cat Driver]

Unions won't work because those who need better conditions generally work for small companies and are far to spread out around the country and there is not enough money in it for a union to be interested.

It has always been a dog eat dog kind of industry with to many hungry dogs...so the supply just never runs out.

Flying is more an emotionally driven desire than a rationally driven desire.

[timel]

It has always been a dog eat dog kind of industry with to many hungry dogs...so the supply just never runs out.

Flying is more an emotionally driven desire than a rationally driven desire.

I think it will be an interesting year to come.

I know one air taxi company, their most experienced captain left is a 1700 hours on twin turboprops. And what is left of experience in many other is not there for long.

Ten years ago that would have been unimaginable. If there is an other regional level heavy hiring this winter. Hungry dogs or not, they will just be running out of what is left of "experienced" pilots in all those air taxi and commuters that refuse to pay to keep pilots.

Maybe they will figure things out like they always do. Or maybe it is just a cycle of aviation, and it keeps on working that way, what ever the hours, what ever the experience.

You have seen more than I did. Where does the real experience / demand can meet the real salaries vs hungry dogs?

[Cat Driver]

You have seen more than I did. Where does the real experience / demand can meet the real salaries vs hungry dogs?

Like any endeavour in life flying for a living requires one to get experience to increase your value to an employer.

I chose segments of aviation that were more demanding skills wise ( Ag flying / fire bombing / air show flying to name a few. ) and once I could perform the task to a high level of profficiency I found employers who would pay top dollar.

I was in my sixties before I was able to really pick and choose who I worked for and demand top dollar for the service offered.

For instance my last incorporated company was offering advanced flight training and my rate was $400 Canadian per flight hour.

In other words there is no easy way that I know of to get to the top.

[Always_Learning]

i like the idea but i would like to see something similar for AME. I would be for a Union like every other trade seems to do.

[Diadem]

I was pondering why the CoP wouldn't want to restrict the number of CPLs issued each year, or increase the standard so that fewer people obtain licences, which seems to be the most effective way to manage the oversupply of pilots. It occurred to me that an organization funded primarily by member fees would have no interest in limiting the number of members; quite the opposite, in fact. Since they won't tell us exactly what their plans are, how do we know that they don't want to take over licensing, lower the standard, and increase their income? The fact that they want to be responsible for licensing while also being funded by the people they're licensing seems like a huge conflict of interest, and is just another issue with having a non-governmental regulator.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A lot of people complain but do nothing. We have a group here that want to do something, and they are not getting any support. There are over 10,000 professional pilots in Canada, yet less than 1000 of you are members.

The CPPC needs to represent Helicopter pilots, crop duster pilots, flight instructors, charter pilots, corporate pilots, commuter pilots, airline pilots, water bomber pilots, survey pilots, bush pilots and specialty work pilots. Even unemployed professional pilots looking for work.

What can the CPPC do to interest these different groups to come on board and give it a standing chance to do something about this profession? What if Specialty committees were created within the CPPC to represent the varying interests of these different pilot groups and somehow integrate them into the CPPC for input ?

The CPPC will be what you make it become by getting on board. If you just stand on the sidelines, it will fail.

We have Transport Canada, bending to airline and operator interests, which thinks that one can fly commercially in Canada with a foreign licence. As a result hundreds of foreign licensed pilots are flying commercially in Canada and taking good jobs away from Canadian licensed pilots. A strong CPPC would never allow such an aberration to occur.

Everyone should join. Not by just sending money and becoming a member on paper but by getting involved pro-actively and turning the CPPC into what you would like it to become.

[Meatservo]

...and here we have Truth:

Flying is more an emotionally driven desire than a rationally driven desire.

[Cat Driver]

Yes Meatservo, but unfortunately few young pilots can overcome the emotion enough to see the rational picture looking out into the future.

But look at the positive side of allowing emotion to over ride logic wnen you are young and in the back seat of a car, it is the same as being in the front seat of an airplane.

Either way you get screwed.

[Impact]

Everyone should join.

Please refrain from telling everyone what they "should" do.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Frankly, I find your fearmongering to be not only absurd, but insulting. You tout that Unions are in bed with the Government, then try to promote your own form of Union. Are you trying to promote unions, or not?

WRT this entire "french" issue, and how it pertains to this particular organization, I wouldn't give them a dime until they outright demand within their manifesto that Bill 101 be repealed. Until equal language rights are seen within the borders of Quebec, I will neither trust nor endorse anything that comes out of that province.....especially a leftwing motivated group of malcontented pilots looking for funding.

So for me, unions represent yet another avenue for which people will once again try to shed responsibility for their actions. This is a trend that is all too prevelant in society in general these days, and I do not condone it.

I didn't quite remember you, so I had to look you up a bit. Now I remember.

Do you see the irony in your last post ? I guess not.

I reiterate: It IS MY OPINION that all Canadian professional pilots in should join the CPPC.

[Cat Driver]

I joined and I am not even a working pilot, I just figured it was worth a few dollars to at least see if it can work.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Show me a mandate to
Pay junior pilots a working wage
Abolish bonds and endentured servitude
encourage the suspension/revocation of OCs from companies blatantly circumventing CARS.
Discourage operators from pushing young pilots in over their heads.
Clean up aviation in this country BELOW the level most of your current airline members operate.
Lobby TSB to release accident details that might prevent repeat performances, in a timely manner.

Then, perhaps I'll look into your little country club.
Until I see some more steak, and a lot less salad on the plate, I'm not interested.
Illya

[Impact]

I reiterate: It IS MY OPINION that all Canadian professional pilots in should join the CPPC.

And I reiterate: It is MY OPINION that it's not a great idea to tell me, nor any other Canadian professional pilot, what they "should" do.

Have fun creeping past posts!

[Meatservo]

... and IT IS MY OPINION that you're taking a common turn of phrase a bit personally don't you think? I can think of quite a few things that I think everyone "should" or "should not" do in my opinion, and it really has nothing to do with you. I'm sure Gilles Hudicourt has every right to state what he thinks everyone should do. A little less of the impassioned chest-thumping would be nice. In my opinion, of course.

[1000 HP]

I've never liked unions and in the past, I have quit a job to "lose" the teamsters. One time, they wanted me to vote to strike for a .23/hr wage increase. I voted alright...

What I'd be worried about is that they would come up with some crazy pay table based on gross weight of the aircraft, with the lowest weight aircraft paying the lowest wages. What would that do to the Otter Pilots who actually always wanted to be bush pilots? My last 5 years in the bush, I made great money and had a good time. I gave it up for year-round work in the oil patch but you never know, if the money is good, I might go back. (My kids are almost out of University so I can afford to eat on lower wages).

I've said before I'd never join a union. I probably won't. I don't like "mandatory" membership and if it comes to that, forget about it. If it is not mandatory no problem let the college of pilots giver sh__... But come up with a better name. Sounds like COPS to me....

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It's not like other groups in Canada, within the Federal Regulated Transport Industry, don't already have similar organizations.

http://www.mastermariners.ca/whoweare.php Company of Master Mariners of Canada

http://www.marinepilots.ca/ The Canadian Marine Pilots' Association

[timel]

Comparing the college of pilots with the teamsters? What!! People stop mixing things around...

We are having some folks that are willing to improve our profession.

Anyone has better?

There is a lot of blabla, doing nothing and complaining in this industry, but when people gather on their own time to build something, people still find ways to complain about it.

As an example they recently started a one to one mentorship system for pilots, it is a first one in this industry.

[1000 HP]

It's not like other groups in Canada, withing the Federal Regulated Transport Industry, don't already have similar organizations.

http://www.mastermariners.ca/whoweare.php Company of Master Mariners of Canada

http://www.marinepilots.ca/ The Canadian Marine Pilots' Association

Gilles, I'll give it an honest check. I am getting older and more patient all the time (unfortunately)...

Timel, CHILL or you might have a heart attack

[timel]

Timel, CHILL or you might have a heart attack

I am chill , but I dont think the teamsters are involved anymore in any pilot unions, at least I hope.

In some pilots point of view, the college of pilots goes from religious fanatics to some so called unions , it is getting interesting...

[Rockie]

I've said before I'd never join a union.

But presumably you have no problem benefitting from the countless work related improvements to safety and conditions unions have wrenched from employers (and governments) over the decades.

I don't like "mandatory" membership and if it comes to that, forget about it.

Union membership in a unionized workplace is not mandatory in Canada and you can choose not to become a member if you wish. What is mandatory according to the Rand Formula is paying union dues whether or not you are actually a member. What this does is ensure no one can benefit from the work of a union acting as your bargaining agent but skip out of paying their share of the costs. Of course if your religion forbids paying dues to a union then you can send the equal amount of money to a charity mutually agreed upon by you and the union. You'll still pay, but the union won't be getting the money.

Maybe you could find a religion that forbids paying union dues and sign up with them?

[1000 HP]

I checked out the website and educated myself. It looks interesting and it possibly may be a good thing. Who knows? They haven't done much so far because they are not yet approved by the government. But if they are certified, they could back a guy up in court if it came down to it. My mother was a nurse and belonged to a similar organization. She also had a union (different). Maybe I'll join the CPPC. Who knows? Maybe I'll get back into flying again if I can find something with a nice round engine to zoom around in. One of the reasons I quit was lack of life insurance while flying seaplanes. That is on their agenda.

And Rockie, I work in an industry now that pays large amounts for good productive workers. I have seen no unions in my 10 years in the oil and gas business. Who needs them? I am also self-employed.