VFR to Europe ?

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stol701
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VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

Is VFR flight plan going to be allowed with HF radio on board?

If not what is the way to fly an airplane with no IFR equipment across the Atlantic?
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ahramin
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by ahramin »

http://www.worldairops.com/NAT/docs/NAT ... ps.com.pdf
Canada, Denmark and Iceland require that pilot and aircraft must be IFR rated for trans-oceanic flight, regardless of the altitude to be flown. Other NAT States allow VFR flight at or below FL055.
Does your aircraft have a 2000 nm range at 5000' plus reserves? Otherwise:

Image
It is extremely unlikely that you will be able to conduct a flight across the Atlantic and remain in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) for the entire flight. Go back and READ THE UNDERLINED SENTENCE AGAIN! VFR flight in this airspace deprives the pilot of the flexibility of using the altitudes above FL055. The higher altitudes may enable a smoother flight, free of precipitation, icing or turbulence.
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stol701
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

That's what I thought.

Thank you very much for the reference document.
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photofly
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by photofly »

stol701 wrote:Is VFR flight plan going to be allowed with HF radio on board?

If not what is the way to fly an airplane with no IFR equipment across the Atlantic?
You go to Iqaluit, then to Sonderstrom, Kulusuk, Reykjavik then Wick, or somewhere similar. No HF needed.
In reality, nobody cares what kind of equipment you have on board.

Good luck getting insurance.

(By the way, how are you expecting to cross large bodies of open water without any navigation equipment? DR?)
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by PilotDAR »

And just for your amusement, a container costs $4450 for 20', or $5980 for 40' UK to Toronto. I bought a 23 foot long airplane in England, and I'm trying to decide if I should cut or derivet a joint in the fuselage to save $1500.

My friends took a 182 amphib across last August, and although filed IFR all the way, they reported VFR conditions the whole way. But that was the first time for the experienced pilot of the two, who has waited a week in Greenland before.

Or, you fly over the ocean, and see this when you reach the coast, you gotta have a plan then!

Image
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stol701
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

photofly wrote: You go to Iqaluit, then to Sonderstrom, Kulusuk, Reykjavik then Wick, or somewhere similar. No HF needed.
In reality, nobody cares what kind of equipment you have on board.

Good luck getting insurance.

(By the way, how are you expecting to cross large bodies of open water without any navigation equipment? DR?)
I'm not sure if it's all sarcastic or only some parts :) I understand IFR is suggested. But the airplane only has Garmin 796. So now it's either flying it VFR if at all possible, or installing IFR equipment, or shipping it in a container, or finding another airplane. Of all these options flying it VFR seemed simplest one provided I don't mind waiting for good weather.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by Cat Driver »

The North Atlantic weather can change very fast, especially Greenland in the summer.

I would not even consider flying a single engine airplane on that route...period...ever...
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by photofly »

By the time you install IFR kit, and maybe ferry tanks, and pay for the trip (I'm not kidding about the insurance) a crate will be cheaper.

Colonel Saunders swore the only way he'd do it was enormous ferry tanks, HF, and via the Azores. At least there's no icing that way.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by PilotDAR »

Single engined across the north Atlantic is kinda like the convenience store clerk who pulls a gun from behind the counter, to fend off a robber. Sometimes it works, and maybe the clerk looks like a hero. Sometimes the clerk gets killed. And really the clerk's skill or action play only a small role in the outcome. We read the awesome tales of those who made it - they seem like hero adventurers. I have friends who did not make it, and they really knew what they were doing.

You can't say singles should never be flown across, it can and does work, but to me, it's like Bob Hoover rolling his Aero Commander, he does not ask if it can be done, he just knows. If any pilot asked any other pilot, should they attempt to roll an Aero Commander, the answer would be a certain "no".

If your goal is to cross, maybe you'll do it one day, but start studying, skill building, and saving. It'll be 10$k to modify most light singles to get them ready, 60 pounds of emergency equipment, and Avgas at as much as $1300 per barrel along the way, ordered six or more months in advance for some places.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by GyvAir »

I'm firmly on the container side of this discussion.
Just to add a touch more colour to the conversation, I was wondering if you'd divulge the model of the aircraft being considered for this trip?
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stol701
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

Cessna U206G. With ferry tanks (150 gallons) and tip tanks (30 gallons). It does have an HF radio.
With 100 gallons of extra fuel it can theoretically have a 2000 nm range @ 6,000 feet and 45% power (18h flying).
With the 100 extra gallons in the ferry tanks (and full tip tanks) it can probably carry 2 pilots but barely.

I'm going to push for installing IFR equipment or if not then the container.
I wanted to know strictly from regulation perspective if this is even theoretically possible but do not have real desire for planning on VFR for the whole flight even if it is legal.

I have not yet seen something that flat out forbids VFR flight plan.
But have seen the text that ahramin referenced above, but it is not a regulation... although coming from the FAA website I guess it is the same.

I wouldn't mind rolling anything into anything. And I wouldn't really mind going for a VFR flight either. But I see that at best it will take days and weeks of waiting, and even if it happens it will not really bring me any sense of accomplishment. At worst I'll die but so is the worst case for IFR so this is not a big differentiator. But anyway doing it VFR is useless. Where if I roll something big into a stupid aerobatic maneuver I at least would get some exhilaration for a brief moment. If anything, I'll get more satisfaction flying IFR successfully than flying VFR.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by GyvAir »

I was vaguely curious if you'd found a smokin' deal on a nice 140 over there.. 8)
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stol701
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

Ah... it will happen... that is one of the big motivators for the trip... other than the trip itself... to have the $$ for the 140 :)
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by co-joe »

Iqaluit to Nuuk is only 500nm. Pang would make a good fuel stop and the trip is cut to 381 nm. Plus you get to fly Pang pass VFR in the summer. Take a Gig of pictures.

Shouldn't a 206 with that extra gas be able to pull off there and back? Rent the lobster suits, hang in the beautiful resort town of Frobay sampling the local quisine and pick the bigest mother of a high pressure system with light winds aloft... Or not. Your call.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by PilotDAR »

I wouldn't mind rolling anything into anything. And I wouldn't really mind going for a VFR flight either. But I see that at best it will take days and weeks of waiting, and even if it happens it will not really bring me any sense of accomplishment. At worst I'll die but so is the worst case for IFR so this is not a big differentiator. But anyway doing it VFR is useless. Where if I roll something big into a stupid aerobatic maneuver I at least would get some exhilaration for a brief moment.
This thought process seems misaligned with a well planned arctic crossing. When I have flown "up there" I have greatly narrowed my tolerance band for things not being as planned - there is simply much less room for error, or help if it is allowed to go wrong. I know it can be done, but that does not mean that it should be attempted under broad circumstances.

In the '80's I delivered more than a dozen singles to Bangor, Maine, for tanking for the crossing. A friend of mine, a former military test pilot and deHavilland Canada test pilot took each from there onward across from there, with great planning and equipping. All but one made it. He and I took a couple of twins, and it is a remarkable trip each time, but only to be accomplished with great experience and planning - so I went with him.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by linecrew »

Interesting read about a Cessna 150 transatlantic flight including a 14 hour long leg from St.John's to the Azores.

http://www.cessna150-152.com/transatlantic.htm
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by photofly »

Here are some pictures from the East and West coasts of Greenland to motivate you.
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20140717-0174.jpg (298.83 KiB) Viewed 2466 times
20140717-0184.jpg
20140717-0184.jpg (453.12 KiB) Viewed 2466 times

"Did I mention you should start sorting out the insurance before you do anything else?
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by Cat Driver »

If you do decide to ferry the North Atlantic the Azores will be a better choice for weather, Iceland and Greenland can be very unreliable for weather at any time of the year.

I watched the weather go from CAVU to Zero Zero in fog in about twenty minutes one day in Narsarsuaq, it is the ice cap that causes such quick changes.

I ferried aircraft internationally for over thirty years and the North Atlantic route was the most dangerous.

Was talking to a guy in Wick while waiting for weather, he was ferrying a single engine and had done it before, on his next ferry flight he left Iceland for Greenland and was never heard from again.

HF is a pain in the ass.....rent yourself a Sat phone and you have perfect communications 100% of the time.

And carry several GPS's.

And a rabbits foot and a horse shoe to sit on. :mrgreen:
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

If I am doing this it will be with an experienced pilot for sure. I am not going to attempt this solo, at least not where I am currently with my flying experience.

Yes, the insurance is something I am aware of can be difficult and needs resolution very early.
The satellite phone is also on the list.

The Azores route seems more and more like the preferred one.


What would you say is the minimum IFR equipment that is needed? I couldn't find it in the CARs but I found in the FARs in 14 CFR 91.205 what is the equipment for IFR flight and the only one that comes close to a navigational equipment is the gyroscopic heading indicator. So what qualifies and airplane as an IFR airplane suitable for crossing the Atlantic? Is it only an IFR GPS?
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by photofly »

I'm guessing you don't have an Instrument Rating then. In general instrument flight requires you to be able to complete your flight safely to either destination or alternate in the event of the failure of a single piece of equipment.

An approach rated GPS, and an ADF for backup, will be what you're likely to use.
Precious few ILS equipped runways on the northern route. Thule has one way up north, and I think there's one more somewhere, but nothing on the east coast.) Very few RNAV approaches either, but the GPS will give you a good steer on an NDB approach. The approaches in Greenland i) are all far apart ii) have very high minimums because of iii) lots of steep terrain very close to the airport with iv) very unpredictable weather.

When you talk about "with an experienced pilot" what you mean is you want to hire an experienced transatlantic ferry pilot who will let you ride along.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

linecrew wrote:Interesting read about a Cessna 150 transatlantic flight including a 14 hour long leg from St.John's to the Azores.

http://www.cessna150-152.com/transatlantic.htm

Great stuff! Craziness is an important ingredient of life... and flying.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

photofly wrote:I'm guessing you don't have an Instrument Rating then. In general instrument flight requires you to be able to complete your flight safely to either destination or alternate in the event of the failure of a single piece of equipment.

...

When you talk about "with an experienced pilot" what you mean is you want to hire an experienced transatlantic ferry pilot who will let you ride along.
For practical purposes I don't have Instrument Rating. It expired 10 years ago and I have not kept up with reading or practicing on simulators.

And yes, that's pretty much what I had in mind for the "experienced pilot". Although I want to prepare everything myself, including renewing my Instrument, and to really do this with the other pilot as a safety pilot.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
... I didn't read the whole thing... stopped on two-way radio

:oops:
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by PilotDAR »

Craziness is an important ingredient of life... and flying
....May be why Transatlantic insurance is hard to get, and the occasional C 150 does not make it home from the east, at night.

In no part of my 39 years of flying, has craziness been an important ingredient.
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Re: VFR to Europe ?

Post by stol701 »

Craziness is not important for individual people. It is only important for all. For the individual person it is deadly. The thing is that without some people risking their lives and paying the price by dying we would not be where we are. There would be nothing to fly on. Just think of all the pilots who died... those were not (all) stupid people. Balloons, gliders, propellers, jets, rocket ships... Risking is mandatory.

I was looking the approaches in Greenland. There are no GPS approaches there. So it seems ADF and VOR/DME will be better + a VFR GPS (or two) as aid.
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