Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

In the USA there is a Federal Aviation Regulation that states that to fly commercially in that country at the controls of a US carrier, one needs to be in possession of an FAA issued pilots licence. This regulation is found here :

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 3.121_1383

and it reads like this:
§121.383 Airman: Limitations on use of services.
(a) No certificate holder may use any person as an airman nor may any person serve as an airman unless that person—
(1) Holds an appropriate current airman certificate issued by the FAA;
In Canada, we have a nearly identical Regulation in our Canadian Aviation Regulations:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... tml#h-1372
705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person
• (a) holds the licence, ratings and endorsements required by Part IV
The regulations of these two countries mean exactly the same thing. They have the same intent :L protect local pilots and the travelling public against possible lower standands found in other countries.
Yet there are no foreign licensed pilots flying for any Part 121 carriers in the USA because the FARs do not allow it
But in Canada its a different story. Compliance with regulations are optional and are left at the discretion of people whose aim is to defend commercial interests.
There are presently are about 120 foreign licensed pilots flying for a Part 705 carrier in Canada although the CARs do not allow it.

Transport Canada has stated that a Foreign Licence Validation Certificate (FLVC) issued under Part IV is a bona fide Canadian Licence.

And ALPA looks the other way. Why ?
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Th difference is the rule doesn't specify that the license must be delivered by TC (the US rule does). It only specifies the license must meet requirements in Part IV.

Part IV has a section (421.07) dealing with Validation of Foreign License Certificate. 421.07(2) spells out when certificates can be used. Read 421.07(2)(i) and (j).
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
The regulations of these two countries mean exactly the same thing. They have the same intent :L
So you either wrote, approved or know the guy who wrote or approved both rules?

Please give me an example of an incident or accident in Canada where someone operating under the FLVC put people at risk that no other Canadian pilot with similar qualifications ever did.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

400.01(2) Any reference in this Part to a permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate is a reference to a valid Canadian permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate.
Now in light of the Regulation you just read, read this one again:
705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person
• (a) holds the licence, ratings and endorsements required by Part IV
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
400.01(2) Any reference in this Part to a permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate is a reference to a valid Canadian permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate.
Now in light of the Regulation you just read, read this one again:
705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person
• (a) holds the licence, ratings and endorsements required by Part IV
You omitted to bold this little part:
400.01(2) Any reference in this Part to a permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate is a reference to a valid Canadian permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate.
Stop turning and omitting rules and facts to strengthen your argument.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
400.01(2) Any reference in this Part to a permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate is a reference to a valid Canadian permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate.
Now in light of the Regulation you just read, read this one again:
400.01(2) Any reference in this Part to a permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate is a reference to a valid Canadian permit, licence, rating or foreign licence validation certificate.
Stop turning and omitting rules and facts to strengthen your argument.
Which means that when the Regulation mention a Foreign Licence Validation Certificate, it refers to a Valid Canadian Foreign Licence Validation Certificate.

It does not mean that when the Regulations mention a licence, that said licence can be substituted for a FLVC.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Gilles,

I understand you want Canadians to fill Canadian jobs. I appreciate that.

What you are doing, trying to find bullshit arguments, twisting every interpretation of the CARs is just diminishing the overall value of your case, ultimately reducing your credibility. It is not less safe to have these guys flying here. They fly in much busier airspace in Europe, are not banned from flying in any ICAO countries.

Where you need to focus your efforts is with the issuance of work permits and engage Immigration and Citizenship. This is where they need to be stopped, if they have to be stopped

As an aside, I am truly surprised you don't say a word about the French coming to Canada for training and sticking around for work afterwards.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote:Gilles,

I understand you want Canadians to fill Canadian jobs. I appreciate that.

What you are doing, trying to find bullshit arguments, twisting every interpretation of the CARs is just diminishing the overall value of your case, ultimately reducing your credibility. It is not less safe to have these guys flying here. They fly in much busier airspace in Europe, are not banned from flying in any ICAO countries.

Where you need to focus your efforts is with the issuance of work permits and engage Immigration and Citizenship. This is where they need to be stopped, if they have to be stopped

As an aside, I am truly surprised you don't say a word about the French coming to Canada for training and sticking around for work afterwards.
It is against the CARs to have foreign licenced guys flying under Part VII in Canada. Just wait till one of these guys causes an accident with a major insurance claim and you will see how BS my claims were.

TC has forbidden its inspectors from discussing this issue. You ever heard of a Transport Canada Inspector telling you he was not allowed to discuss a Regulation ?
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Inverted2
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Inverted2 »

Anyone know if Georgian is using TFWs? I've been hearing a lot of heavy accents on the radio lately.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Gilles,

Why do we have the FLVC process in the first place? Why some sections of the law actually deal with the ATPL?

As you know (you alluded to rule intent earlier), rules are not always written in a way that transpire the true intent of the rule. I suspect (because I cannot definitely say) this is such a case.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote: As an aside, I am truly surprised you don't say a word about the French coming to Canada for training and sticking around for work afterwards.
You just have no idea......

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 97#p885788
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timel
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by timel »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote: As an aside, I am truly surprised you don't say a word about the French coming to Canada for training and sticking around for work afterwards.
You just have no idea......

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 97#p885788

Yep, schools like Grondair or in St-Hubert use (or used) the TFW for aerial work or instruction. There are other visas related to work guarantees, also used as a fast track for students to come study and work in Canada.
Last trick I heard is fire patrols pilots who do "internships" to go around work policies.
Some even come on a visiting visa and end up with some sort of work visa. Why don't they tell the people to make the paperwork right and then immigrate?

Not only French, but many other nationalities. For some school/operator the visa is leverage for lower wages or no wages at all.

Pilot are not the first ones to blame but the schools and operators who advise / arrange the pilots with semi-legal type of solutions.
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Heisenberg666
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Heisenberg666 »

Inverted2 wrote:Anyone know if Georgian is using TFWs? I've been hearing a lot of heavy accents on the radio lately.
No TFWs at Georgian, but they have hired a lot of non-Canadian pilots that already had working rights in Canada through one form or another.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

The Europeans, EASA will, for commercial purposes, issue a validation on a one shot basis per pilot, valid for a maximum of one year. The idea is to allow a foreign pilot to work for a maximum of one year with his foreign licence while he works on obtaining his EASA licence.

I recently exchanged with the Australian Civil Aviation. They have Regulations similar to the Europeans. They issue Validations for training, ferry flights etc but will not renew an FLVC for commercial flying. When its done, its a one shot deal.

In Canada, certain Foreign Licensed pilots have been coming to Canada every winter for several years, to fly for 705 Operators.......
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

CARs shouldn't regulate who works in Canada. CIC does.

What if your TFW got their TC ATPL (easy) and worked in Canada? Would you be satisfied?
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote:Gilles,

Why do we have the FLVC process in the first place? Why some sections of the law actually deal with the ATPL?

As you know (you alluded to rule intent earlier), rules are not always written in a way that transpire the true intent of the rule. I suspect (because I cannot definitely say) this is such a case.
For ferry flights, for training, etc.

CAR 401.07 (Foreign licence validation) indicates why FLVCs can be issued. It has been modified twice over the last few years, and on each of these modifications, the legislation requires that modifications must not only be published in the Canada Gazette, but must be also subject of a Regulatory Impact statement Analysis (RISA) which addresses the issue in question. These RISA which were prepared by the specialists from Regulatory Affairs of Transport Canada are as follows:

Canada Gazette, Vol 133, No 49, December 4 1999 :
CAR 401.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences)
This amendment will add the prohibition that the applicant may not permanently reside in Canada. The change will emphasize the transitory nature of the foreign licence validation certificate. Personnel Licensing and Training Standard 421.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences) limits the maximum duration for which such a certificate may be valid to one year from the date of issue. This standard also sets forth the list of purposes for which such a certificate may be issued. While the issuance of the foreign licence validation certificate accepts the standards of training and operations within the original licensing country, these restrictions upon the duration and purposes of such a certificate minimize the exposure of Canadian operators and the Canadian licensing system to potentially less stringent standards.

CAR 401.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences)
The proposed amendment to CAR 401.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences) will prohibit a permanent resident of Canada from applying for a foreign licence validation certificate. This restriction will support the limited duration and use to which such a certificate can be put. The protection of the safety of the Canadian aviation system from the effect of possibly less rigorous standards applied in pilot licensing elsewhere, which could dilute the worth of a Canadian document if foreign licences were validated in Canada without limit or restriction, will be maintained
It's spelled out. The FLVC was meant to be not only transitory, but also very limited in both time and purpose.

Some guys have been receiving FLVC for line fliying B737 for several years in a row. They have been in constant possession of an FLVC for several years. It that transitory and limited in time and purpose ?

CAR 421.07(2(j) did not exist until 1997. It was created from Scratch by NPA 97-097. One of the the authors of that Regulation back then who was on the CARAC NPA 97-097 committee was an Inspector named Arlo Speer (I have the full package of NPA 97-097 here at home, obtained through an Access to Information request).

I also obtained emails that TC Inspectors exchanged with each other with regards to FLVCs when dozens of pilots filed complaints against the FLVCs to TC. Here is what the very same Also Speer had to write to Jean Francois Mathieu, who was then had of enforcement at TC:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105 ... 111151.jpg
For what it's worth, even given a hugely strict reading, the part 7 regulations cited in no way prevents the validation of foreign licences... those part 7 sections may well preclude a pilot with such a validation from serving as a flight crew member in part 7 operations; however, it's not correct to say that those sections "do not allow Transport Canada to issue" those documents.
So we have one of the original CARAC committee members who was part of NPA 97-097 that created CAR 421.07(2)(j) writing to the Chief of enforcement Inspector at TC that FLVC are not legal for commercial flying under Part 7.
I
Then there is the rest of his email which has been censored and that TC will not release. It probably contains more damning information.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Where, in the regulation, does it states time limits? Nowhere. And I think it's appropriate.

A transitory period can be recurrent and when you apply the rules to individuals, I believe this merts the intent if the rule.

The email says MAY WELL, not does. To me, it means it could but he is not sure.

If there us a process to certify foreign licenses but people are not allowed to work using the certificate then why even have the darn process?

Like l said, the problem resides with CIC and goes beyond TFW...
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by rxl »

Heisenberg666 wrote:
Inverted2 wrote:Anyone know if Georgian is using TFWs? I've been hearing a lot of heavy accents on the radio lately.
No TFWs at Georgian, but they have hired a lot of non-Canadian pilots that already had working rights in Canada through one form or another.
Georgian undercut the industry standard WAWCON to operate CRJ's and now they bypass qualified Canadian pilots. Great.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Takeoff OK »

Auxbat: Are you being intentionally obtuse? This is actually very cut and dry, and you are absolutely on the wrong side of the argument. The spirit of the law is clear, and it is being abused by a subsection whose intent is not, and never was, to allow what has been happening.

You are eloquent, to be sure; but that doesn't change the garbage coming out of your mouth (keyboard) into facts. Interpretation is what keeps lawyers fat and happy. But you won't find a single one who would agree with you when coming from a truly objective point of view.

Gilles is 100% correct on this thing, and ALPA has been totally absent -- likely due to Adamus enjoying his comfy chair in Ottawa a little too much.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

If this was cut and dry, it would have been settled long ago....

The root cause does not reside at TC. If there is ANY issue with the FLVC, all Sunwing has to do is get their guys to write 3 easy exams and a short flight test to get their canadian ATPL and bypass the FLVC. Then your TC argument doesn't hold any water.

CIC is where the in-flow of foreign worker is controlled. This is where TFW get their work permit, foreign national get their work visas and are then allowed to fill canadian positions.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Try calling your local TC office and ask to speak to an Inspector to inquire about a Regulation. When you get him/her on the line, tell him/her you would like to discuss the Regulations pertaining to FLVCs for commercial flying in Canada.
He/She will reply that he/she is not allowed to discuss this and refer you to the Director' General's Office in YOW.
Insist and ask for his/her opinion. He/she will not accept to give you his/her opinion.

When you are done, try another TC office and a different inspector. You will get the same result.

Try to discuss this over a beer with your childhood friend now Transport Canada Inspector and he/she still wont talk.

That is how cut and dry this FLVC issue is. It's a possible career ending issue for those who risk talking.......

One day the lid will blow and then people will run for cover......

I have received emails from TC Inspectors from their private email address, and they did so at great risk to themselves. There are a few brave ones out there I must say.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

When I first began to look into this issue, I wrote a CAIRS report to ask that this paragraph be explained to me (725.106(6)):
A foreign licensed pilot may be granted authority for training and checking only when a Canadian licensed pilot is not available.
Here the reply I received:
Your reference to CASS 725.106 (6) does not apply to the situation you are referring to with either Sunwing or Canjet because this CASS is only applicable when an air operator introduces a new airplane type to their operation. It basically provides the possibility for an air operator to temporary employ a foreign pilot in order to provide training or line in-doc where one training pilot would not be available in Canada because being a new type to the operation and/or in Canada.
In other words, according to this fine TC Civil Servant, when you have a new aircraft in your fleet, you can only hire foreigners to train you on it when Canadian trainers are not available. When the aircraft is no longer new, or you are no longer training people on it, you can hire foreigners to fly it.

If you buy this explanation my good AuxBatt, I have some prime swampland for you......
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

You still haven't replied to my question:

If those 139 pilots taking advantage of the FLVC came to Canada for 1 week and completed the 3 exams, the flight test in an Aztec, submitted their application for the ATPL and received their ATPL, you would drop your swords and say it's all good now?
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Takeoff OK »

AuxBatOn wrote:You still haven't replied to my question:

If those 139 pilots taking advantage of the FLVC came to Canada for 1 week and completed the 3 exams, the flight test in an Aztec, submitted their application for the ATPL and received their ATPL, you would drop your swords and say it's all good now?
It would no longer be an issue. But, of course, they won't do that because it is time consuming and there is no guarantee of passing.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Takeoff OK wrote: It would no longer be an issue.
I disagree. You have an issue with non-canadians taking canadian jobs. Whether it's through the FLVC or the Licensing process is irrelevent to the result: they both take jobs they perhaps shouldn't.

Like I said, the real problem resides with CIC allowing non-canadian to work in fields that are already saturated with canadian labour. It's not an issue with TC.
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