New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Bech741]

A cap of 500 doesn't seem capable of moving everyone from JZA to AC that choose to flow. Why would someone relatively JR wanting to move over want to spend 10 years on the edge of this agreement? Instead of an arbitrary number, wouldn't it make more sense saying that a specific DOH may elect to make the transfer?

Heard midpoint on the list is 15 years of service. 2 Years from the top of the pay scale.

Loopa, I want to know the answer to your questions too.

[hithere]

I can pretty much guarantee you that the top 500 guys at Jazz will not flow through. Going BOTL does not interest them(they wouldn't do it in the early 1990s so they sure won't do it now. Junior Captains, especially those 45 and younger may be interested as will many senior FOs. This is the demographic that Jazz is targeting and would like off the property.

[Nerdturndbird]

495 secured positions at AC. With those positions you have 2 years to decide whether you want to flow or not. The way I see it all the senior jazz guess can basically hold their secured position while the see what unfolds. This will undoubtedly hinder progression to any of the jazz FOs. Is there some sort of silver lining to this? Going to watch every 20 year old barista get hired over there while you are effectively halted at Jazz during the hiring spree.

[Radiocaster]

495 Jazz pilots at ac is still a pretty big number. Don't forget, new hires at ac are estimated to be around 1000 ober the next 7 years. With a slow start for the next two. So half of that will come from Jazz. Plus the retirement at Jazz, this is positive for every body. If you flow to ac, you get a good job opportunity with a major airline. If you don't, you gain in seniority with upgrade prospect. I think that the second third of the list is the one that is going to profit more from it.

[aV1aTOr]

According to ACPA:

Only 495 vacancies protected at AC for Jazz pilots until 2025.
Anyone electing to flow to AC gets BOTL new hire status (seniority, pay, vacation, pension, YOS etc).
Jazz pilots will continue to compete with off the street candidates for vacancies in each course.

Besides allowing a Jazz pilot the ability to delay going to AC for 24 months and holding a seniority number during that time (only after being officially hired by AC), I fail to see how this flow through program benefits Jazz pilots at all? What am I missing? The media release touted this feature as if it was a big carrot for the Jazz pilots.

Of course I understand that there are many Jazz pilots that would flow to AC if given the opportunity. I just don't see how this flow through program moves their chances beyond status quo.

[rudder]

Like I said - of all of the iterations of move up/flowthrough/preferred hiring that have existed since 1988, this one is the least substantial.

I do not see where AC has really made any commitment exceeding what would have been a normal hiring process and pattern from Jazz regardless. The only let from ACPA seems to be the reserved seniority number for 24 months if a Jazz pilot defers.

I am guessing that the fallout from this will be many junior Jazz pilots leaving for Encore, Porter, Sunwing, etc as that will probably be a faster path to an AC seniority number. Looks like the law of unintended consequences will be in effect for Jazz.

[aV1aTOr]

Like I said - of all of the iterations of move up/flowthrough/preferred hiring that have existed since 1988, this one is the least substantial.

I do not see where AC has really made any commitment exceeding what would have been a normal hiring process and pattern from Jazz regardless. The only let from ACPA seems to be the reserved seniority number for 24 months if a Jazz pilot defers.

I am guessing that the fallout from this will be many junior Jazz pilots leaving for Encore, Porter, Sunwing, etc as that will probably be a faster path to an AC seniority number. Looks like the law of unintended consequences will be in effect for Jazz.

My thoughts exactly. Of course the full details of this deal are not yet known, but so far this new deal seems to be lacking any real gains for Jazz pilots.

[hithere]

Because a Jazz flow through pilot's current pay will be protected(subsidized) by Jazz for his/her first 4 years at mainline. Top scale Jazz Captains make about $120,000 a year. AC will pay the flow through pilot the standard new hire"off the street" pay and Jazz will top it up(to whatever he/she was making when they quit Jazz) for four years. After 4 years the Jazz top up ends but AC formula pay will start to kick in so depending on what the flow through pilot can hold at that time, his year 5 pay at AC should be close to what he was making in years 1-4, if not more. Also there is a provision that if the Flow though pilot blows his training or washes out for whatever reason(it's rare, but entirely possible and has happened before) the pilot can return to Jazz with his former Jazz seniority number.

[rudder]

Because a Jazz flow through pilot's current pay will be protected(subsidized) by Jazz for his/her first 4 years at mainline. Top scale Jazz Captains make about $120,000 a year. AC will pay the flow through pilot the standard new hire"off the street" pay and Jazz will top it up(to whatever he/she was making when they quit Jazz) for four years. After 4 years the Jazz top up ends but AC formula pay will start to kick in so depending on what the flow through pilot can hold at that time, his year 5 pay at AC should be close to what he was making in years 1-4, if not more. Also there is a provision that if the Flow though pilot blows his training or washes out for whatever reason(it's rare, but entirely possible and has happened before) the pilot can return to Jazz with his former Jazz seniority number.

Correction - top scale Jazz Capt make $120/hr which equates to over $125,000 per year. Plus a DB pension benefit. Most Jazz Capt regularly earn over $130,000 and some make over $150,000 with overtime. These pay rates will grow by 2% compounded annually if the rumour mill about the ALPA TA is accurate.

Based on the latest AC pay scales for year 1-4 new hires, Jazz will have to top up a top-scale Capt by a total of $221,000 just to balance base pay over that 4 year time frame. Of course there wil be savings for Jazz as another defined benefit pension subscriber is removed from payroll.

I really do not see how this system gets Jazz to the promised land of lower pilot costs. And I also do not see the attraction for many of the current top-scale Jazz pilots. I suspect that subscription is more likely from top-scale FO's or junior Capt at risk of downgrade as the Jazz CPA fleet and block hours are shrunk. Perhaps it will make more sense once ALPA confirms the details that have already been released by ACPA to the AC pilots.

[winston]

Holy Crap, this forum has become the Lang / O'Leary of Jazz and aviation in Canada! Experts and analysts everywhere.
EVERYTHING until tomorrow is a rumour people let's keep that in mind. Whatever has been built into the TA must be big and a real game changer for Jazz hence the very well kept secrets, vetting etc.
I know it was mentioned 4 pages and a week ago but to those on here that actually work at Jazz, please, let's digest and analyze as a group rather than post the details to the armchair vultures that are dying to tell us how we're getting screwed or how great the deal is and how they would or wouldn't sign. It'll all come out eventually but there is no need for all the experts to slow down and take a look on our behalf.
Now, let's hope our negotiating team did a good job and I'm not being naively optimistic.
Cheers,
W

[Joe Pepper]

Good luck to all Jazz pilots. Good news indeed.

[razorblade]

^
That.

[dukepoint]

.

[JoeyBarton]

So is this 495 number a minimum or a cap? I hear both versions, pretty scary actually for anybody witnessing the whole debate from the outside.
Also, if the flowthrough starts in February how the **** is this beneficial to Jazz as they are already loosing tons of guys for the major Airlines in Canada costing them thousands in training and initials?

[BingBong]

Threats are not tolerated here. One strike.
Bandaid

Next time try a PM.

[Texan1256]

Can anyone from Jazz confirm whether or not the restriction is still in place of waiting two years before applying at AC after signing with Jazz?

[indieadventurer]

New Jazz pay scale (if the TA passes) shows first 3 years at $36, $37 and $38 per credit hour. A dark day in Canadian aviation and regional flying if this is the case. Will one have to go through either Encore or Jazz/AC Express in order to get to a mainline in this country? Subtract the 20% AC will apparently still take from off the street or ones ability to get to WJ before that door closes.

New hires at Jazz would be better off to vote this TA down and get to AC years sooner by applying directly....or am I missing something?

[47north]

New Jazz pay scale (if the TA passes) shows first 3 years at $36, $37 and $38 per credit hour. A dark day in Canadian aviation and regional flying if this is the case. Will one have to go through either Encore or Jazz/AC Express in order to get to a mainline in this country? Subtract the 20% AC will apparently still take from off the street or ones ability to get to WJ before that door closes.

New hires at Jazz would be better off to vote this TA down and get to AC years sooner by applying directly....or am I missing something?

Yes I think you are missing the point. I am not going to post the details of the TA here, but suffice to say that if the TA is voted in, any pilot currently at Jazz is basically guaranteed to flow to AC if they chose. What is better; a sure bet or rolling the dice and having to go through the entire AC intake process? The answer is easy for me.

[TrailerParkBoy]

New Jazz pay scale (if the TA passes) shows first 3 years at $36, $37 and $38 per credit hour. A dark day in Canadian aviation and regional flying if this is the case. Will one have to go through either Encore or Jazz/AC Express in order to get to a mainline in this country? Subtract the 20% AC will apparently still take from off the street or ones ability to get to WJ before that door closes.

New hires at Jazz would be better off to vote this TA down and get to AC years sooner by applying directly....or am I missing something?

Yes I think you are missing the point. I am not going to post the details of the TA here, but suffice to say that if the TA is voted in, any pilot currently at Jazz is basically guaranteed to flow to AC if they chose. What is better; a sure bet or rolling the dice and having to go through the entire AC intake process? The answer is easy for me.

It guarantees all pilots an interview at AC if a rediculous number of jazz pilots put their name on a list. AC makes the decision if you get hired. There are no sure bets in aviation, that is for sure!

[Stinky]

New Jazz pay scale (if the TA passes) shows first 3 years at $36, $37 and $38 per credit hour.

If that's the case I think we're about to witness an amazing display of hypocrisy. There are a few hardliners on here that have said it is absolutely unacceptable to accept a wage below industry standard; the standard being Jazz as described by them.
Lets see how quick they are to throw the industry under the bus if it writes their ticket to AC or a left seat at Jazz sooner depending on where they sit on the seniority list.
This could be great for the current Jazz pilots but it will be interesting how it affects the rest of the industry. AC will have essentially done years worth of hiring in one fell swoop. The jobs available will be the newer low paying jobs at Jazz and the other, yet to be named company that will be operating the AC lift that must be replaced. I'm sure that payscale will be even lower. There will be little hope for these pilots to progress beyond the regional level, with the exception of a token few.

[sstaurus]

New Jazz pay scale (if the TA passes) shows first 3 years at $36, $37 and $38 per credit hour.

If I'm not mistaken, that's even worse than Encore isn't it?

[AllClutch]

This is a survival contract.
by cedeing a slight pay reduction in the first years we managed to save 1350 jobs for currebt enployees and countless jobs for people not on the property yet that might otherwise have to work at Georgian for shittier terms, working conditions and long term renumeration.

[FlyHigh13]

This is a survival contract.
by cedeing a slight pay reduction in the first years we managed to save 1350 jobs for currebt enployees and countless jobs for people not on the property yet that might otherwise have to work at Georgian for shittier terms, working conditions and long term renumeration.

I'm not an employee with Jazz so I am not in "the know", but I saw $36/hr being thrown around for new hires. (36,37,38 for first 3 years.)

If you average 80 hrs per month, for 1 year thats $34,560 starting pay. Am I missing something here? That seems a lot more than a slight pay reduction. I made more flying a 172.

And the $1/hr increase is a pretty shallow curve if you ask me.

I see how this deal is beneficial to current guys at Jazz higher in seniority, but for lower seniority or new hires what's the deal? I get there's the flow through, but if you get hired by Jazz today, you are gonna be like 600-700 in line. That will be a long time making less than 40k / year.

Again, I don't know the details of the deal, and I see how this is a survival contract for Jazz. Maybe there's something else that I'm missing?

[DH772]

AllClutch,
don't kid yourself this is far more than a slight reduction. You are talking huge reductions for new hires (3rd year pay 57 vs 38). Flyinghigh13 you are missing something. And that is even further reduction that have not been mentioned here yet.
This is not a survival contract. Sounds more like a greed contract.

Here is my question. the CPA will be slashed anyway in the future (aka jazz shrinks), and AC will have the hiring flood gates open in 2017 which likely would see most new hires coming from jazz ANYWAY. So what are you really guaranteeing if Jazz will shrink and most of its pilots would be hired by AC and/or retire anyhow? The word senior pilot comes to mind.
Will this contract go down in Canadian history as the biggest sell out of future pilots?

[razorblade]

for 1 year thats $34,560 starting pay.

Yup! And don't forget, Jazz is dangling the mainline carrot now, just like WJ did a year-ish ago. And there's also profit sharing now! So it's all going the same way.

It's all exactly the same as what everyone agreed to, when Encore started and is currently doing for new hires. Except the flow is 80% and not 25%.