New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[TrailerParkBoy]

This is a survival contract.
by cedeing a slight pay reduction in the first years we managed to save 1350 jobs for currebt enployees and countless jobs for people not on the property yet that might otherwise have to work at Georgian for shittier terms, working conditions and long term renumeration.

We are not saving 1350 pilot jobs at jazz...wear losing 50 pilot jobs per year for the next 10 years! This is the projection. If jazz can secure more flying from AC then maybe the numbers lost will be smaller.

Once again, this is another aviation FAIL! Shameful and embarrassing!

[AllClutch]

Then vote no and Ill see you at the Georgian interview when were all unemployed.

[TrailerParkBoy]

Then vote no and Ill see you at the Georgian interview when were all unemployed.

Are you afraid to lose your job with Jazz? AC needs regional flying....now more then ever! WestJet is ramping up service in the East. If AC wants to expand internationally, they wont be able to lose passengers to WestJet.

Protect our profession.

[AllClutch]

You think the next AC regional we end up at will be the same conditions or better than Jazz?
Nope. And guys will only refuse to work for those places untill their kids are hungry and then theyll swallow their pride and reminisce about the old days and how much better it was at Jazz before we sunk the ship to avoid becoming competitive.

[rxl]

If that's the case I think we're about to witness an amazing display of hypocrisy. There are a few hardliners on here that have said it is absolutely unacceptable to accept a wage below industry standard; the standard being Jazz as described by them.
Lets see how quick they are to throw the industry under the bus if it writes their ticket to AC or a left seat at Jazz sooner depending on where they sit on the seniority list.
This could be great for the current Jazz pilots but it will be interesting how it affects the rest of the industry. AC will have essentially done years worth of hiring in one fell swoop. The jobs available will be the newer low paying jobs at Jazz and the other, yet to be named company that will be operating the AC lift that must be replaced. I'm sure that payscale will be even lower. There will be little hope for these pilots to progress beyond the regional level, with the exception of a token few.

Before this turns into some pointless blame game, there are a few things that need to be clarified.

I suppose it's human nature but the first page everyone heads to in a TA is the pay scale ... "how much am I gonna make?" The pay scale is only a part of a much larger package of benefits, per diems, expense payments and work rules that is probably more important than rates of pay.
All aspects of the industry benchmark Jazz collective agreement are INTACT. In fact the agreement is better than before with a 2% increase to all expense amounts and per diem rates, and a 2% increase to the current pay scale every year for the life of the agreement. There are productivity enhancements which will allow pilots the option to work more to earn more.
Yes, there is a new hire pay scale that starts at a lower than ideal rate, but the starting rates are at the bottom of a 20 year long scale of tenure that matches the current rates at the 17 year mark and tops out at $120 per hour. This agreement, if ratified, will provide for at least 900 very good pilot jobs until 2025.


There is no hypocrisy in a pilot group that realized a long time ago that a pilot is a pilot is a pilot and whether you fly an A380 or a 172, if you earn your living flying airplanes, then you deserve to be treated with respect by your employer and your peers.
There is no hypocrisy in a pilot group that has fought long and hard and has been willing to risk it all by taking strike action 3 times in the last 28 years to establish and maintain the benchmark collective agreement for "regional" pilots.

I think we just put the brakes on the bus.

[Blue Side Up]

Very well said ^

[FlyHigh13]

.

[DH772]

There is no hypocrisy in a pilot group that has fought long and hard and has been willing to risk it all by taking strike action 3 times in the last 28 years to establish and maintain the benchmark collective agreement for "regional" pilots.

I disagree. You're playing off a horrible contract for new hires.
It is worse than encore. At least encore offers guarantee flow even for those not on property yet.

[countryhick]

AC sets the numbers and rules for flow, not Jazz

[DH772]

Irrelevant in my discussion. My point is for a junior pilot, at least at Encore will offer a guarantee for them where as accepting a job with Jazz will not.

[razorblade]

I disagree. You're playing off a horrible contract for new hires.
It is worse than encore. At least encore offers guarantee flow even for those not on property yet.

In 10 days, so will Jazz.

[JoeyBarton]

Well apparrently not, if you have to interview to flow to mainline!

I agree this is depressing for all the 1900 captains who were holding for mainline, for all the pilots at inuit, creebec, PAL, calm air, 7f, 5t and so on who were hoping to get to mainline from their present flying gigs. Now as the the poster mentionned we have to whore ourselves to get in at start at a whopping worse than Encore 34k to have the privilege t go to mainline in a decade.

Now I really hope Sky regional and GGN pilots will stop getting eye-stabbing looks from Jazz crews who are about to scab on their own future peers after the TA is voted. What a mess....

[AllClutch]

Im going to write my union rep scolding him for not considering the feelings of the PASCO 1900 driver right now.

[Diadem]

Up until about two weeks ago, I was really keen on working for Jazz, but now I'm questioning why I would ever apply. I used to think it was a good place to make a career, and that I could go there as the last rung on my ladder. Now, I don't know why I would take a significant pay cut (to make less than I did as a King Air FO) so that I can sit right-seat for the better part of a decade, and maybe someday have a chance at AC. I was looking at Jazz as an option for a career position precisely because I don't want to go to AC. Jazz is just going to become a stepping stone to a company for which I don't want to work. At least Encore has relatively quick upgrade times and guaranteed flow-through, whereas if I start at Jazz tomorrow I'll probably still be an FO in 2025 and find myself out on my ass when this CPA winds up because I wouldn't be high enough in seniority to get one of the AC jobs. This new agreement just seems to be providing guarantees of career stability for anyone at Jazz who wants it, but instead of getting it with Jazz they'll move over to Big Red to get it; anyone who isn't on the property already will be making less money for no guarantee of success in the end, and I don't see why anyone who doesn't already work there would want to go to Jazz now. New hires would basically be subsidizing the careers of those ahead of them on the seniority list.

[loopa]

Im going to write my union rep scolding him for not considering the feelings of the PASCO 1900 driver right now.

There definitely is something to be said about entitlement here. No body is entitled to anything in any industry. And no, it's not your union reps fault. But it sure is a slap in the face when all this time it has been preached that the normal route to the airlines(good pay, life style, schedule, retirement) are by putting in your time in a 703/704 outfit until they call. Or even going to a regional airline which will pay more, offer better lifestyle/schedule until the majors call. A slap in the face more so because you have probably put up with more than enough bs to this date. All chalked up to there being light at the end of the tunnel, only to be finding out now that this light was actually a train. At least if AC is your goal. If WJ is your goal, I think otherwise.

Which is why I truly believe that Encore will succeed in the regional market. Why? Because WJ has always been able to go about business the right way. Hence why they are the preferred airline as much as there are haters out there claiming otherwise. While some short-sighted individuals are looking at the growing pains at WJ as their dooms day, I see it as them taking advantage of a fantastic market that is/will be available to them in regional flying. And expansion into that market will always be at the expense of rapid growth, and unprecedented variables that could lead to hurt feelings. Everyone is hung up on the pay at Encore. Fair enough. When the new pay scale is released, you will see why I think the management group at WJ isn't going to dissapoint. Encore was a risk, and they had to go about it with calculated moves. Since it's proven to be a success, I think it's a matter of time when we will be posting "congratulations" on the WJ forums about an amazing WAWCON at Encore. Call me naive, call me stupid, call me anything you want. But that's my belief. Because unlike AC, WJ has never really been a mess. Track their history.

Jazz's faith was sealed the moment EVAS/Georgian/Sky Regional were able to offer AC Jazz flying for a fraction of the cost. Remember the Air BC days and etc? What happened? Didn't they become Jazz? Isn't Jazz now getting destroyed allowing small carriers to take over the regional flying again? AC regional flying has always been a mess. And it will continue being a mess. Hence, why I never believed in a career at Jazz, nor a career at AC for any new hire starting in the last 5-10 years. They always seem to disappoint. Historic behaviour is usually an indication of future behaviour they say. And if you track AC's history, it's always been like this. WJ on other hand, is going through growing pains, but is still going about business as usual.

I really feel for the boys and gals at Team Red (Jazz/AC/Sky/Evas/GGN).

And go...

[flyloose]

If I'm understanding it correctly, the PMA only applies to CURRENT jazz pilots on property at time of ratification..not any of the B-scale new hires.

[pilotman15]

Did I see $36/credit listed somewhere as the new starting pay? I never thought I would see the day where a Georgian RJ FO starts at a higher hourly wage than at Jazz.

[dukepoint]

Im going to write my union rep scolding him for not considering the feelings of the PASCO 1900 driver right now.

There definitely is something to be said about entitlement here. No body is entitled to anything in any industry. And no, it's not your union reps fault. But it sure is a slap in the face when all this time it has been preached that the normal route to the airlines(good pay, life style, schedule, retirement) are by putting in your time in a 703/704 outfit until they call. Or even going to a regional airline which will pay more, offer better lifestyle/schedule until the majors call. A slap in the face more so because you have probably put up with more than enough bs to this date. All chalked up to there being light at the end of the tunnel, only to be finding out now that this light was actually a train. At least if AC is your goal. If WJ is your goal, I think otherwise.

Which is why I truly believe that Encore will succeed in the regional market. Why? Because WJ has always been able to go about business the right way. Hence why they are the preferred airline as much as there are haters out there claiming otherwise. While some short-sighted individuals are looking at the growing pains at WJ as their dooms day, I see it as them taking advantage of a fantastic market that is/will be available to them in regional flying. And expansion into that market will always be at the expense of rapid growth, and unprecedented variables that could lead to hurt feelings. Everyone is hung up on the pay at Encore. Fair enough. When the new pay scale is released, you will see why I think the management group at WJ isn't going to dissapoint. Encore was a risk, and they had to go about it with calculated moves. Since it's proven to be a success, I think it's a matter of time when we will be posting "congratulations" on the WJ forums about an amazing WAWCON at Encore. Call me naive, call me stupid, call me anything you want. But that's my belief. Because unlike AC, WJ has never really been a mess. Track their history.

Jazz's faith was sealed the moment EVAS/Georgian/Sky Regional were able to offer AC Jazz flying for a fraction of the cost. Remember the Air BC days and etc? What happened? Didn't they become Jazz? Isn't Jazz now getting destroyed allowing small carriers to take over the regional flying again? AC regional flying has always been a mess. And it will continue being a mess. Hence, why I never believed in a career at Jazz, nor a career at AC for any new hire starting in the last 5-10 years. They always seem to disappoint. Historic behaviour is usually an indication of future behaviour they say. And if you track AC's history, it's always been like this. WJ on other hand, is going through growing pains, but is still going about business as usual.

I really feel for the boys and gals at Team Red (Jazz/AC/Sky/Evas/GGN).

And go...

What does "prefered airline" mean? It's a term that's used to discribe Westjet a lot in the Media and elsewhere.

What does "a mess" mean? AC has never once missed payroll. Folks can get as wrapped up in politics as they like....or not. Most just do their job, enjoy it and go home and ignore rumours/forums.

DP.

DP.

[countryhick]

DH772, its totally relevant, Jazz and AC are 2 separate companies, it is impossible to promise a flow to AC to a new hire. Last time I checked, Westjet owned Encore, pretty easy to make that promise.

I'm not going to comment on the TA until the vote is complete, but I will say there is a lot more to it than you seem to know.

Cheers

[flyer 1492]

From what I am hearing (thru the grapevine) is out of 10 new hires starting at WJ, only 1 is coming from WJE.

[Texan1256]

for 1 year thats $34,560 starting pay.

Yup! And don't forget, Jazz is dangling the mainline carrot now, just like WJ did a year-ish ago. And there's also profit sharing now! So it's all going the same way.
It's all exactly the same as what everyone agreed to, when Encore started and is currently doing for new hires. Except the flow is 80% and not 25%.

I have to ask a rhetorical question...what the hell is wrong with this industry. We spend tens of thousands getting trained, years to build up hours of experience in a log book while risking our lives in bad weather and questionable aircraft for pizza driver wages, and when we arrive at a place to be hired at a regional airline, we are expected again to work for Tim Horton's wages. Teachers start working at this pay right out of University, tradespeople make more as apprentices, mail carriers make more, most administrative assistants pay more. How many lives are those people holding in their hands? I was chatting with I guy I know who works in a local industry as a experienced millwright who makes over 150k and more with OT. Who decided that being an airline pilot deserved to make high school drop out wages? Really, when is this gonna end? And why do we accept this as normal and acceptable?

[mbav8r]

Really, when is this gonna end? And why do we accept this as normal and acceptable?

That is the problem, pilots accept this as normal and continue applying to these outfits.
Am I to understand that posters above want me and all the Jazz pilots to fall on our swords and possibly be out of work in 6 years, when time and again those same pilots continue applying at places like GGN, Sky Regional and Encore. These companies started the race and we are backed into a corner with no choice but say yes or die a slow painful death.
This TA will allow Jazz to be competitive for future work from AC, without it we are not even invited to bid, so you tell me, what the F$%K are we suppose to do?
The current pilots were not forced to take concessions, in fact there are many improvements, the flow allows both companies to save money down the road and the new hire pay scale will eventually match the current scale, just takes longer to get there.
As pilots retire or move over there will be opportunities to move up sooner than the current average, especially if more flying is secured.
Would also like to mention that the per diems went up for all pilots, including new hires and I can pretty much guarantee a new pilot at Jazz will take home more than any other regional new hire in Canada!

[loopa]

From what I am hearing (thru the grapevine) is out of 10 new hires starting at WJ, only 1 is coming from WJE.

Incorrect. Confirmed by WJ management that flow through has been 25% all this time. And starting may the flow through goes to 50% Read the WJ forums for more details.

What does "prefered airline" mean? It's a term that's used to discribe Westjet a lot in the Media and elsewhere.
.

Correct. And it continues being a big dividend in why WJ is so successful. With a shrinking Jazz, will morale be as good as a growing Encore? I believe it won't.

I think we can agree that Air Canada's image has been suppressed as not caring about customers for a very long time. Just recently are they slowly starting to recover from that image. Even though I've personally had enjoyable flights on them most of the time. So when you have a certain reputation with customers, anyone under that colour will be painted with one brush. Jazz included. Add a shrinking, and painfully dying Jazz to the mix, and you will have a lot of low morale workers that probably don't enjoy working for Jazz anymore.

Morale at AC regional airlines will be low, employees will generally be pissed/short, and they won't care. This will show, and drive customers away. Where will they drive the customers? To the growing Encore that is literally blowing up the Canadian regional market as we speak. Don't believe it? Surely you've worked crappy dead-end jobs before dukepoint and understand the relationship between employee morale and customer service, and in turn customer retention? 10+ years to Mainline for a new hire on a b-scale that probably already has 10 years exp in this industry? That's definitely a dead-end job. Who knows what chess moves AC will make anyway in 10 years.

At the end of the day, consumers don't care about Jazz... EVAS... Sky Regional... Encore. They care about getting from point A to point B and being treated with respect, and have a good experience. Once there's poor morale-related experiences at Jazz, any AC consumer will change to WJ - Yes, even the business traveller. Doesn't help that WJ's frequent flier market is taking a huge up-step while Aeroplan points has become very hard to attain. A lot of business travellers are upset by this very point. Search the heralds, you'll see numerous threads on it. Who takes the blame for aeroplan related issues once again? I'll answer it for you. The AC product and in turn and indirectly, Jazz amongst the rest of the AC regionals.

The picture is bigger than this TA guys... especially when you look at it from a non-pilot perspective. The Encore product is here to stay, while the Jazz product as we know it is not. And I think Encore will succeed extremely well with Canadian travellers in the years to come. This new Jazz symphony acts as an added reason for why I think Encore will succeed as well. Because if it's been a good experience travelling on AC regionals, it's been on Jazz. So you guys have been the one saving AC's image while the SKY's/EVAS/GGN's have damaged it on a regional scale. So when you join the same race to the bottom as the rest, AC's regional flying will honestly take a huge hit. And Encore will get the traffic.

So would a new hire really thrive at Jazz? Doubt it. Encore's the way of the future in this country. Hate it, love it, shoot me for it. I speak what I believe to be a logical truth with the information that I have today.

What does "a mess" mean? AC has never once missed payroll. Folks can get as wrapped up in politics as they like....or not. Most just do their job, enjoy it and go home and ignore rumours/forums.

DP.

DP.

Regardless of rumours and politics and etc, if you don't agree AC's regional flying has been a mess right from the beginning, then we simply will have to agree to disagree. Respectfully of course.

Obviously all of the above minus the fact about WJ flow through is all just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[FlyHigh13]

I can't speak for everyone and the whole experience with Encore, but most people I've talked to hate the seats on Encore and find them super uncomfortable and unpleasant.

[rxl]

So what's better for the industry? - 1377 Jazz pilots on the street in 2020, or 900 good jobs at Jazz until 2025?