New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Diadem]

Am I to understand that posters above want me and all the Jazz pilots to fall on our swords and possibly be out of work in 6 years, when time and again those same pilots continue applying at places like GGN, Sky Regional and Encore. These companies started the race and we are backed into a corner with no choice but say yes or die a slow painful death.

How can you blame pilots taking jobs at GGN, Sky Regional and Encore for accepting low wages when your own company will be paying new hires $36/hr if this agreement passes? Sure, you get employment for another five years, but you're contributing to the decline of the industry. I certainly don't expect you to fall on your sword, and I would never blame anyone for acting in their best interest, but it seems a bit hypocritical to lament everyone else destroying our profession while simultaneously bringing in a payscale that is worse than all of the companies listed above. "Well they started it!" Yeah, but now there are no regionals that pay well, and there's no reason for me to even apply at Jazz. You have continued employment, but if I want to work for an airline I now have no choice but to take a dramatic cut in income because every single mid-level carrier now pays less to fly a Dash-8 than I could make in the right seat of a 1900. Those pilots who are applying at GGN, Sky Regional and Encore are contributing to the steady decline of our wages, but you're making it even worse by giving new hires even less than they do. I don't know anyone who would go to Jazz for $34000/year, to sit right seat for seven or eight years, and then be laid off.

[dukepoint]

From what I am hearing (thru the grapevine) is out of 10 new hires starting at WJ, only 1 is coming from WJE.

Incorrect. Confirmed by WJ management that flow through has been 25% all this time. And starting may the flow through goes to 50% Read the WJ forums for more details.

What does "prefered airline" mean? It's a term that's used to discribe Westjet a lot in the Media and elsewhere.
.

Correct. And it continues being a big dividend in why WJ is so successful. With a shrinking Jazz, will morale be as good as a growing Encore? I believe it won't.

I think we can agree that Air Canada's image has been suppressed as not caring about customers for a very long time. Just recently are they slowly starting to recover from that image. Even though I've personally had enjoyable flights on them most of the time. So when you have a certain reputation with customers, anyone under that colour will be painted with one brush. Jazz included. Add a shrinking, and painfully dying Jazz to the mix, and you will have a lot of low morale workers that probably don't enjoy working for Jazz anymore.

Morale at AC regional airlines will be low, employees will generally be pissed/short, and they won't care. This will show, and drive customers away. Where will they drive the customers? To the growing Encore that is literally blowing up the Canadian regional market as we speak. Don't believe it? Surely you've worked crappy dead-end jobs before dukepoint and understand the relationship between employee morale and customer service, and in turn customer retention? 10+ years to Mainline for a new hire on a b-scale that probably already has 10 years exp in this industry? That's definitely a dead-end job. Who knows what chess moves AC will make anyway in 10 years.

At the end of the day, consumers don't care about Jazz... EVAS... Sky Regional... Encore. They care about getting from point A to point B and being treated with respect, and have a good experience. Once there's poor morale-related experiences at Jazz, any AC consumer will change to WJ - Yes, even the business traveller. Doesn't help that WJ's frequent flier market is taking a huge up-step while Aeroplan points has become very hard to attain. A lot of business travellers are upset by this very point. Search the heralds, you'll see numerous threads on it. Who takes the blame for aeroplan related issues once again? I'll answer it for you. The AC product and in turn and indirectly, Jazz amongst the rest of the AC regionals.

The picture is bigger than this TA guys... especially when you look at it from a non-pilot perspective. The Encore product is here to stay, while the Jazz product as we know it is not. And I think Encore will succeed extremely well with Canadian travellers in the years to come. This new Jazz symphony acts as an added reason for why I think Encore will succeed as well. Because if it's been a good experience travelling on AC regionals, it's been on Jazz. So you guys have been the one saving AC's image while the SKY's/EVAS/GGN's have damaged it on a regional scale. So when you join the same race to the bottom as the rest, AC's regional flying will honestly take a huge hit. And Encore will get the traffic.

So would a new hire really thrive at Jazz? Doubt it. Encore's the way of the future in this country. Hate it, love it, shoot me for it. I speak what I believe to be a logical truth with the information that I have today.

What does "a mess" mean? AC has never once missed payroll. Folks can get as wrapped up in politics as they like....or not. Most just do their job, enjoy it and go home and ignore rumours/forums.

DP.

DP.

Regardless of rumours and politics and etc, if you don't agree AC's regional flying has been a mess right from the beginning, then we simply will have to agree to disagree. Respectfully of course.

Obviously all of the above minus the fact about WJ flow through is all just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Not sure if you were responding to my queries. Forgive me, but I don't really understand what you said.....like, at all. Can you paraphrase? Thanks.

DP.

[skkfdk]

Jester in the court grinning devilishly is AC and its elite top management...lets stop the blame game among each other!!!

[teacher]

I feel like I need to finally jump in here to clarify some ultra moron comments about this TA at Jazz.

Before you start throwing stones at the Jazz pilot group for trying to survive blame who ACTUALLY deserves to be blamed. Air Canada dictates what they pay their pilots and also dictates what it will pay for tier 2 lift. Air Canada said "accept these rates or no CPA past 2020." These new rates have now dictated that for Jazz to survive our costs MUST be lower or ZERO jobs post 2020.

Everybody is praising WJ but who started Encore in order to under cut and price out the competition? WESTJET. Who advertised paying less than the competition? Encore! Who works more, gets paid less with the carrot of perhaps going to Westjet? ENCORE! Who's pilots have resumes at ALL the major airlines in Canada trying to jump ship? ENCORE!

Encore, Sky Regional and Air Georgean are 100% to blame for the drastic reduction in regional wages because their respective motherships have dictated that they do so. Jazz pilots have on many occasions had their livelyhoods threatened by taking difficult actions to raise the bar on pilot wages and working conditions and what did it get us? Price chopping, wage lowering competitors that are proud to do it for less. Now WE have no choice but to lower ourselves to their level in order to survive.

Some pilot unity, thanks a lot. If anybody needed to stand up for pilot wages it was EVERYBODY ELSE who agreed to work for less than what we made.

Now, I understand that a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do to feed their family but spare me the BS about Jazz selling out new hires and lowering the bar. Jazz pilots still have an industry leading contract. Yes, new hires get paid less but will eventually make the same. It's not a "B" scale if the top end is the same as in the current contract. Savings had to be found and new hires generally leave within the first 3 years at Jazz regardless of pay as has been seen in the past 5 years despite the pay increase for FOs in the last contract. So there is the reason for the lower starting pay. It could have been much worse but the pain was spread around to everyone.

So now we have a new TA that keeps Jazz alive, provides AC with a more cost competitive tier 2 carrier, maintains the current pay scales for pilots staying at Jazz, has yearly increases for all wages, expenses and per diems (twice as much as most airlines in Canada), allows pilots who end up staying at Jazz the opportunity to make just as much as current Jazz pilots but over a few extra years and allows pilot mobility for Jazz pilots to AC.

Just remember to place the blame where it actually belongs, not the Jazz pilots caught in the middle but to all those that forced our hand and almost cost us our jobs.

[Art Garfunkel]

I think most of the negative comments are coming from pilots that are in the AC pool or at companies, they thought, would be a good spot to get in AC. (Not an AC regional)

I think it's good AC finally realizes the value in an AC regional pilot for a mainline job. After all, you have worked hard and supported the brand for many years. Even though the brand hasn't supported you.

I think the blame for the race to the bottom in regional WAWCON has to be shared by all pilots involved in the AC brand (mainline, Jazz, Sky, GGN) and the WJ brand(mainline, Encore). Low paying regional pilot jobs only exists because mainline pilots let them.

[AlphaOne]

^
+1

[TrailerParkBoy]

Really, when is this gonna end? And why do we accept this as normal and acceptable?

That is the problem, pilots accept this as normal and continue applying to these outfits.
Am I to understand that posters above want me and all the Jazz pilots to fall on our swords and possibly be out of work in 6 years, when time and again those same pilots continue applying at places like GGN, Sky Regional and Encore. These companies started the race and we are backed into a corner with no choice but say yes or die a slow painful death.
This TA will allow Jazz to be competitive for future work from AC, without it we are not even invited to bid, so you tell me, what the F$%K are we suppose to do?
The current pilots were not forced to take concessions, in fact there are many improvements, the flow allows both companies to save money down the road and the new hire pay scale will eventually match the current scale, just takes longer to get there.
As pilots retire or move over there will be opportunities to move up sooner than the current average, especially if more flying is secured.
Would also like to mention that the per diems went up for all pilots, including new hires and I can pretty much guarantee a new pilot at Jazz will take home more than any other regional new hire in Canada!

You're obviously not a poker player.

Jazz is expensive they say; so to fix the problem, pay off senior pilots to leave earlier, and pay new hires competitively, bottom of the gutter, regional salaries, which after 11 yrs they say you will be making the top salary!

ALPA as well as ACPA said 5 years ago that they would not join the race to the bottom. Where are those voices now?

Solution: Make 1st year salary what it is now, with the 2% raise. Ditch the B-Scale!

[navajo_jay]

+1 teacher

Also another problem is that there has been no movement in the last couple of years, more downgrade, base closures etc. Now with the flow to Ac we would see some movement, quicker upgrades and hopefully, the new hire won't be spending 10-15 years in the right seat. It means quicker upgrades for new hire. The new TA is pretty much the same as the actual one.

[rxl]

It's easy to say it's not just about pay when you aren't the one facing a large pay cut to get into the airline industry. The industry is changing for the people on the outside into a very scary situation.

Guys have been working hard at 703/704 companies hoping to build enough hours to make it to a major airline. Now with the flowthrough agreement, the industry is heading in the direction of basically have to make a choice of going to an Air Canada regional, or WestJet regional (Encore).

After years of battling it out at the 703/704 level building experience, hopefully you found yourself in a decent paying position at a company. Now you have to give it all up to start at the bottom of a regional just for the hopes of getting the call up from the Major.

There was very high optimism that Air Canada had a large hiring boom coming. Classically you could go to Air Canada directly from your job flying people around up north, now you are being forced to accept a regional job earning crap pay to get in the back of the hiring line. The only other option is to compete for the MAX 20% positions that will be hired from outside flow. Pretty discouraging for us on the outside looking in.

There is much more to be considered beyond what you term "crap pay" before any sort of a fair judgement can be made.

The first year pay rate at Jazz for newhire first officers on the TA is actually $36.00 per hour. At 5 years of service the rate is $47.00 per hour with the top rate for first officers at $75.03 for first officers.

All of the good things that existed in the Jazz collective agreement for many years are preserved and in fact enhanced in the TA. The agreement applies to ALL Jazz pilots from date of hire until retirement.

The good things in the agreement that need to be recognized beyond the pay scale include; a defined contribution pension plan, the majority of extended health and dental care premiums are paid, short and long term disability plans are provided, various expense allowances are paid including uniform maintenance, shoes, crew bag allowance and great per diems. Even at the newhire level, it's a pretty competitive package.

With an agreement like this, any suggestion that the Jazz pilot group is "throwing the industry under the bus" is just plain wrong.

[Diadem]

I don't know how many times I've read threads about Georgian or Sky Regional or an American regional, and pilots taking jobs because they need to feed their families, where the Jazz pilots all said "Jazz will never sink to that level! We won't let it happen! We're better than that and we stand on principle! We won't be part of the race to the bottom!" Now it comes down to Jazz pilots having to feed their families, and boy oh boy have they changed their tunes. That's what really irks me: the hypocrisy. If I were in their positions I would have done the same thing and gotten what was best for me, so I'm not upset that they're acting in their own best interest. What really bothers me is them saying that it's everyone else's fault and they're just doing what they've been forced to do. If any of them would come out and say "Yeah, Jazz is a dead end, so get from it what you can while you can", I would have a lot of respect for their honesty. Trying to sell this as a good thing for everyone that couldn't be helped because of the competition is attempting to absolve themselves of any responsibility for voting in a contract that will sell all new hires short. Admit that the only people who will benefit from the new agreement are those who already have Jazz seniority numbers, and that it's a waste of time for anyone else to apply, and I think a lot of people will appreciate the candour.
The difference between Jazz and Encore is that Encore is brimming with opportunity. The people I know who've gone to Jazz have gone there because it's the place they thought they would end their careers and make a good living; they never planned on it being a stepping stone, so they wanted good pay and benefits. The people who went to Encore knew that they were making less, but they accepted the lower wage because of the long-term pay-off. They get quick upgrades (with consequent raises) and guaranteed flow to mainline (with consequent raises). A new hire at Jazz will now make less than Encore, less than Sky Regional, even less than Georgian. There are long lines for upgrades. There are no guarantees of flowing to AC; indeed, it's almost a certainty that it won't happen for anyone who doesn't already work at Jazz. So now Jazz has become a company with no future, no career prospects, and no pay. Why would anyone leave a job as a captain on a King Air or a 1900 for $70000/year to make half that, and not be able to upgrade or go to AC before being laid off in 2025? That's ultimately the crux of my issue with this TA, from the perspective of a potential applicant. There's absolutely nothing in it for me. Does the TA have a clause about how many pilots will flow to AC if Jazz can't hire enough replacements? Because I don't know anyone qualified who would bother accepting that pay with no future prospects. There's a reason Encore is only flowing at 25%, and now that they've got enough pilots on the go they're increasing to 50%. I bet that if Jazz can't replace everyone who wants to go to AC, and the regional operation is put at risk, there will be a lot fewer than 80% Jazz pilots in every groundschool. Who knows, maybe Jazz will hire 700 college grads over the next ten years, because they would be the only ones willing to take dead-end jobs for $34000/year. It most definitely is a B-scale if I make less for the next decade, and would only eventually catch up to the standard scale years and years down the line; I'd be making 3/4 what new hires do now, and I wouldn't make up the difference for almost two decades. Even then, it would never even out, I would just be getting back on par, and I would have lost out on savings and retirement income with interest over the course of a huge chunk of my career. I would never get that back. As for raises, if it really will only rise by $1/hr each year for the first three years, then that's hardly enough to cover inflation; it's really just a cost-of-living increase. Under the current agreement, it rises $6/hr in the second year, and $8/hr in the third year, which means new hires will just fall further and further behind. After five years you'll be making $47/hr, which is less than the current second-year pay; not only that, but I already have all of the benefits that rxl listed, and I don't know of any employers hiring pilots of my experience level who don't also offer all of that. If you owned a McDonald's franchise and paid your workers $10/hr, but then started paying new hires $8/hr and didn't raise it to $10 for a decade, you're goddamn right that's a B-scale. Eventually getting back to the regular pay rate while working for less over the course of years adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost income.
I'd really like a Jazz pilot to come out and say "We know there's no future here, so we're getting over to AC while the getting's good. It's going to be a terrible place for new hires, so don't bother." It would be a nice dose of refreshing honesty. Trying to sell this as a great thing for new hires is disingenuous, and passing the blame onto all the other regional operators while simultaneously voting in a TA that benefits yourselves at the cost of those new hires reeks of hypocrisy. We all know Jazz will be dead come 2025, so you might as well admit it and tell everyone here not to bother submitting applications. Just don't be surprised when your plan falls apart because they can't entice anyone to accept the horrible new conditions and replace you, or you find yourself flying with a bunch of pimply college grads who don't know an ILS from an FMS and need to be babysat all day.

[TrailerParkBoy]

So what's better for the industry? - 1377 Jazz pilots on the street in 2020, or 900 good jobs at Jazz until 2025?

Do you think AC will just dump Jazz in 2020? AC needs feeders for the expanding international model. Sky Regional and Georgian both have trouble finding crews. They wouldn't be able to meet the demands!

[Inverted2]

The FO pay at Jazz will top out higher than Capt pay at Encore and Georgian. Plus you get a pension, excellent benefits, and you'll get perdiems that will more than cover you unless you eat at the Keg on every layover.

[rxl]

So what's better for the industry? - 1377 Jazz pilots on the street in 2020, or 900 good jobs at Jazz until 2025?

Do you think AC will just dump Jazz in 2020? AC needs feeders for the expanding international model. Sky Regional and Georgian both have trouble finding crews. They wouldn't be able to meet the demands!

There are no guarantees whatsoever for Jazz beyond 2020 if the TA does not ratify.

[TrailerParkBoy]

So its not a B Scale if the salary ends the same? Celsius and Farenheit are equally chilly at -40, so I guess C and F are the same scale? That doesn't seem right!

[indieadventurer]

The FO pay at Jazz will top out higher than Capt pay at Encore and Georgian.

Yeah but you're comparing a 5 year pay scale to what, a 15 or 20 year pay scale at Jazz?

[TrailerParkBoy]

So what's better for the industry? - 1377 Jazz pilots on the street in 2020, or 900 good jobs at Jazz until 2025?

Do you think AC will just dump Jazz in 2020? AC needs feeders for the expanding international model. Sky Regional and Georgian both have trouble finding crews. They wouldn't be able to meet the demands!

There are no guarantees whatsoever for Jazz beyond 2020 if the TA does not ratify.

There are no guarantees whatsoever for Jazz beyond 2025 if the TA is ratified! The game will never end until we stop playing!

[Diadem]

The FO pay at Jazz will top out higher than Capt pay at Encore and Georgian. Plus you get a pension, excellent benefits, and you'll get perdiems that will more than cover you unless you eat at the Keg on every layover.

There's no guarantee that you would have a job after ten years, let alone fifteen, and if you're still an FO after fifteen years then Jazz was definitely the wrong career path. The only way to catch up to the current pay scale is to be stuck in a position for so long that the company might not have existed for five years.
Let me put this pay scale into perspective. A new hire at Jazz would make roughly $34000/year, per diems, a defined-contribution pension plan, extended health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a uniform allowance. At my first real flying job, as a King Air FO, I made $33000 my first year, plus about $5000 of per diems, about half of which went straight into my bank account, an RRSP into which my employer matched my contributions, comprehensive health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a clothing allowance. The difference is that at my first job I got four weeks of vacation.
If you want me to come to Jazz and take over your job so you can go to AC, you need to entice me with something better than what I have. Why the hell would I take a job with worse pay and benefits than what I made fresh out of flight school?

[FlyHigh13]

It's easy to say it's not just about pay when you aren't the one facing a large pay cut to get into the airline industry. The industry is changing for the people on the outside into a very scary situation.

Guys have been working hard at 703/704 companies hoping to build enough hours to make it to a major airline. Now with the flowthrough agreement, the industry is heading in the direction of basically have to make a choice of going to an Air Canada regional, or WestJet regional (Encore).

After years of battling it out at the 703/704 level building experience, hopefully you found yourself in a decent paying position at a company. Now you have to give it all up to start at the bottom of a regional just for the hopes of getting the call up from the Major.

There was very high optimism that Air Canada had a large hiring boom coming. Classically you could go to Air Canada directly from your job flying people around up north, now you are being forced to accept a regional job earning crap pay to get in the back of the hiring line. The only other option is to compete for the MAX 20% positions that will be hired from outside flow. Pretty discouraging for us on the outside looking in.

There is much more to be considered beyond what you term "crap pay" before any sort of a fair judgement can be made.

The first year pay rate at Jazz for newhire first officers on the TA is actually $36.00 per hour. At 5 years of service the rate is $47.00 per hour with the top rate for first officers at $75.03 for first officers.

All of the good things that existed in the Jazz collective agreement for many years are preserved and in fact enhanced in the TA. The agreement applies to ALL Jazz pilots from date of hire until retirement.

The good things in the agreement that need to be recognized beyond the pay scale include; a defined contribution pension plan, the majority of extended health and dental care premiums are paid, short and long term disability plans are provided, various expense allowances are paid including uniform maintenance, shoes, crew bag allowance and great per diems. Even at the newhire level, it's a pretty competitive package.

With an agreement like this, any suggestion that the Jazz pilot group is "throwing the industry under the bus" is just plain wrong.

I'm not blaming Jazz for this. I see how they are kind of forced into it by the rest of the industry. It's a shitty situation but ultimately it's now the new industry standard and Jazz has finally dropped down to it.

My main point is (all I was trying to say) is it's very scary for an outsider to hear about the flow through. Guys who have put their time on 1900s up north, waiting for the air canada phone call just got a kick in the nuts. Their chances of getting hired just dropped 80% minimum. They now are forced into the regional business and delay their career progression significantly. These are the pilots that have avoided encore, ggn and sky regional and didn't participate in the regional spiral.

And even if Jazz is still the top dog for AC Regionals and that's the route someone is now going to take, the pay for the first 3-4 years has dropped significantly. So on top of the career delay, their pay has also gone down. Another step has been added to the career path for these guys and that's a tough pill to swallow. I don't see why anyone would choose to go to Jazz or any airline route now unless you really, really want to fly for a Major because now you have no choice.

Once again, I'm not saying Jazz has thrown the rest of the industry under the bus because they are not the sole reason it has gone this way. I believe they are now the final nail in the coffin of this downward spiral. Hopefully on a positive note, future pilots will have a clear career progression and avoid the constant set backs many pilots are seeing.

[FlyHigh13]

The FO pay at Jazz will top out higher than Capt pay at Encore and Georgian. Plus you get a pension, excellent benefits, and you'll get perdiems that will more than cover you unless you eat at the Keg on every layover.

There's no guarantee that you would have a job after ten years, let alone fifteen, and if you're still an FO after fifteen years then Jazz was definitely the wrong career path. The only way to catch up to the current pay scale is to be stuck in a position for so long that the company might not have existed for five years.
Let me put this pay scale into perspective. A new hire at Jazz would make roughly $34000/year, per diems, a defined-contribution pension plan, extended health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a uniform allowance. At my first real flying job, as a King Air FO, I made $33000 my first year, plus about $5000 of per diems, about half of which went straight into my bank account, an RRSP into which my employer matched my contributions, comprehensive health and dental, short- and long-term disability, and a clothing allowance. The difference is that at my first job I got four weeks of vacation.
If you want me to come to Jazz and take over your job so you can go to AC, you need to entice me with something better than what I have. Why the hell would I take a job with worse pay and benefits than what I made fresh out of flight school?

Exactly. What is the benefit for new hires to join Jazz now? Benefits isn't going to sell it. The flow through has to be pretty damn good.

For more perspective:
I made 36k starting my career flying a Cessna. Then over 42k as an FO with excellent benefits, pension, clothing allowance, expenses and per diems.

Not everyone wanting to go to AC is coming from GGN, Sky Regional and the likes.

[Duke15]

This seems to be the best option for current Jazz pilots, but for the rest of us who arent at encore or Jazz what are we supposed to do now? If AC needs 1000 pilots over the next 10 years only 200 will be outside of Jazz unless they stick to the 498, but that seems weird if the ratio is 80/20. Basically the rest of us have been left with Transat, Sunwing, or a regional....not saying it isnt a decent career, its great...but at the end of the day if you wanted AC or WJ your SOL...seems to me its a bit of a shitty day for the rest of us.

[Mig29]

I say keep the bottom pay scale, don't lower the bar! instead chip away a dollar or two at every pay level and still be an example in the regional industry.

Flow through is a great thing for middle/upper level seniority guys, as long as AC keeps hiring and increasing their flying. If the economy stops or goes south, AC will have to rethink their hiring/flow through policy and then what?

In my opinion, reject the offer and re-tweak the TA and you will have a majority of guys saying "yes". No need of spreading fear and doomsday scenarios and pressuring guys to vote in less then 10 days. Jazz will be around past 2025, because it's hard to see that a company that is the major feeder to AC dissolves with a min fleet of 86 planes and close to 800+ pilots. Let's be real for a minute and turn of your fear porn TV channel

[TopperHarley]

If the very first offer that came along included a flow, then Im sure there's room for improvement with more negotiating which would still include the flow.

[Mig29]

exactly my point. No need to rush this through. After all it is a 10 year CA.

[countryhick]

Folks, the PMA was negotiated by AC & Chorus/Jazz. ALPA had input, but was not directly involved in negotiations!

ALPA, doesn't want the rush either, thats the timeline given to ALPA by AC and Chorus/Jazz.

There is no option/room to negotiate any more financially or timewise, that was made abundantly clear!

[teacher]

As countryhick said. The timeline has been set by AC and the flow through has been arranged by AC and chorus in order to reduce costs with minor input from ALPA. ALPA wanted a lot more but has been told "take it or leave it". Wanna play hard ball with CR? How'd that work out for ACPA? Thought so.