New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[rxl]

I get the distinct impression from a number of posters in this thread that they sincerely think that the pilots of an airline that employs 1,300+ of their peers (not to mention some 3,700 other employees who stand to be negatively affected in all of this) should turn down a crucial tentative agreement so that those posters MIGHT have better individual odds of being hired at Air Canada.

Their arrogance breathtaking.

[rhythm101]

Teacher and Allclutch ,

Clearly these two are the first two off the property trying to get through the interviews.

CONGRATULATIONS, you have just proven that you are the stupidest, most ignorant poster on this website, and that is saying something. Your parents must be proud!

[arcadia]

I highly doubt that, especially after reading through your past 25 post.
Care to enlighten me why you feel this way? You telling me these two aren't in favourable positions if this flow through agreement happens?

[rudder]

For those looking to work for Jazz and feel starting pay must go up - simply vote with your wallet and do not apply. The law of supply and demand will force Jazz to either park planes and forgo revenue (and profit) from AC under the CPA or cause Jazz to reevaluate starting pay in order to become a prospective pilots first choice for employment.

As for the proposed Jazz pilot preferential hiring system at AC - it is going to facilitate the movement of hundreds of Jazz pilots to AC over the next few years. For the doomsayers predicting that it is just another facade to permit rejection of Jazz pilot applications, you will be disappointed. Some applicants will be unsuccesful but the vast majority will receive employment offers. And that is because this is a system that AC wants and that provides benefits to AC when maximized. Many of the pilots that will fill 80% of the new-hire groundschool spots at AC have been flying AC passengers around for two decades or longer.

The rules of the game just changed. Some favourably - some unfavourably. Welcome to commercial aviation in Canada. It is never boring.

[TAWS]

I highly doubt that, especially after reading through your past 25 post.
Care to enlighten me why you feel this way? You telling me these two aren't in favourable positions if this flow through agreement happens?

arcadia....

Seems like other than this thread the majority of your 44 posts are in a thread called "Air Canada Pool".....

Pissed off about the flow through agreement?....Looks like you've been posting in that thread for quite some time....this agreement is a real wrinkle in your plans huh?.....a no vote would help YOUR cause I bet?

Smoke and Mirrors....

[timel]

Take the carrot and you might make it to AC one day, maybe...
Like Mig29 said, more negociations would not hurt.

I think the Canadian regional industry wants to follow USA, it is sad Jazz is following the trend. Where does it stop?

Rudder, yes pilots of 3000 hours earning 50 000$ will probably not apply, last time I checked, to be a dash8 co-pilot you need around 300 hours and an IATRA. Jazz won't have any supply issues.

It is sad days for the industry.

[teacher]

I highly doubt that, especially after reading through your past 25 post.
Care to enlighten me why you feel this way? You telling me these two aren't in favourable positions if this flow through agreement happens?

arcadia....

Seems like other than this thread the majority of your 44 posts are in a thread called "Air Canada Pool".....

Pissed off about the flow through agreement?....Looks like you've been posting in that thread for quite some time....this agreement is a real wrinkle in your plans huh?.....a no vote would help YOUR cause I bet?

Smoke and Mirrors....

I get the distinct impression from a number of posters in this thread that they sincerely think that the pilots of an airline that employs 1,300+ of their peers (not to mention some 3,700 other employees who stand to be negatively affected in all of this) should turn down a crucial tentative agreement so that those posters MIGHT have better individual odds of being hired at Air Canada.

Their arrogance breathtaking.

Which is why I am no longer responding to this persons posts.

[countryhick]

Ok, one more time.

Flow is an AC/Jazz document, ALPA had no negotiating power wrt it.
The flow document is entrenched in the extended CPA, if flow does not get passed, neither does the TA, and vice-versa.
This TA was achieved through informal discussions, and as such are not bound by the rules/timelines that govern formal discussion as dictated by the CIRB.
This TA is the last/final/end of discussion/no more negotiations offer from Jazz.

To make it clear, THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LEFT TO NEGOTIATE

ALPA had a choice, bring this to the members, or roll the dice in 6 months for over 1300 pilots when our contract is due, with only 5 yrs left on the existing CPA. It was made abundantly clear that the results would not be anywhere close to this TA. Throw in that AC would almost certainly find other options, and it it's quite clear the choice ALPA had.

I'm the first to admit it's not perfect, but under the circumstances I am amazed at what we were able to hold on to, and also secure for new hires. And yes the starting wage sucks, trust me that's a very contentious point with everyone, and it's been made clear to higher ups that it will be a detriment to future hiring.

[JoeyBarton]

Ok, one more time.

Flow is an AC/Jazz document, ALPA had no negotiating power wrt it.
The flow document is entrenched in the extended CPA, if flow does not get passed, neither does the TA, and vice-versa.
This TA was achieved through informal discussions, and as such are not bound by the rules/timelines that govern formal discussion as dictated by the CIRB.
This TA is the last/final/end of discussion/no more negotiations offer from Jazz.

To make it clear, THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LEFT TO NEGOTIATE

ALPA had a choice, bring this to the members, or roll the dice in 6 months for over 1300 pilots when our contract is due, with only 5 yrs left on the existing CPA. It was made abundantly clear that the results would not be anywhere close to this TA. Throw in that AC would almost certainly find other options, and it it's quite clear the choice ALPA had.

I'm the first to admit it's not perfect, but under the circumstances I am amazed at what we were able to hold on to, and also secure for new hires. And yes the starting wage sucks, trust me that's a very contentious point with everyone, and it's been made clear to higher ups that it will be a detriment to future hiring.

But what do you have for new hires like you said? A B scale and their names won't even be on the list Jazz will submit to AC. What's the deal for the new guys once the first influx of pilots ( minimum 495 ) is at AC?
Who will want to join that ship????

[Joe Pepper]

None of this is the fault of the Jazz pilots and I fully support them. This company is essentially being chopped in half. Why? Well, I don't think I need to tell anyone on this forum why. From the moment we started our careers we selfishly chased any and all opportunities to progress in our career. We never once stopped to think about how our decisions would affect the people that came after us or how it would affect our future for that matter. We just wanted to fly bigger and better aircraft with the hope that one day we could find ourselves in a financially sustainable position at a descent company. I once had a new pilot friend call and ask me if it was ok to accept a job flying a brand new 206 for free. Here was their chance. The big first step. They didn't care about setting a bad precedent nor should they as the precedent had already been set. It's just the way things are they said.

Here was a company that truly stood up amongst the rest. The last bastion of decent wages and good benefits for regional pilots. How did it come to this? How about the two outfits that were created to compete with them at bargain basement prices. The head shed knows how fickle we are. We did what we do best, and ran to them with open arms and a bag of excuses as to why we decided to go. It's the same mentality we had from the beginning and it's never going to change. There were several Jazz pilots that even made the jump because they thought they were on a sinking ship. The left seat was their ticket to a better life they said. Fair enough. If it wasn't them it would be someone else. We have all given the finger to collectivism from the start so why should it start now?

Some of these pilots have been serving Air Canada for decades. Decades you see. Long before many of you even started your primary education. How is it not fair for them? It should have been like this from the start in my opinion, but who cares about opinions. Some careers were stifled because of the acrimonious relationship between the two pilot groups affected by this agreement. But to some this is a moot point because it does not best serve their own selfish interests. Why should I care if their fleet is being decimated? Why should I care about what happened to their careers? It's my career I'm worried about. My life, not theirs.

In reality we aren't arguing or debating the demise of pilot industry. What we are really doing is stomping our feet and screaming what about me!? What have we ever done that was best for us as a collective? Just look at the College. Did we even care? From the moment we had a ticket to work in this industry we have selfishly done whatever it took to get ahead. It's just our nature. So let's not pretend otherwise. I'm surprised Unionism has lasted as long as it has in our industry. But even looking through the union lens, what have they done but protect their OWN interests. And fair enough. Why wouldn't they? There is a large rapacious group of pilots standing behind the door ready to eat them alive if only they had the chance. That might be a little too exaggerated but you catch my drift.

If you want to blame anyone about the new hire pay scale at Jazz we should all look in the mirror. We need to accept the reality of the economic system we work in and stop pretending to fight collectively when in reality we are only fighting for our own best interests. Perhaps only then will we find a solution to a problem that goes way beyond what is happening at Jazz. Perhaps not. In any case, this is our reality. I give kudos to the Jazz negotiators. They have selfishly protected their own interests and as a direct result protected the interests of the rest of their group. I hate to say this, but as it applies to the piloting profession, maybe Ayn Rand was right.

[rocket81]

Skyreg will be the only one left with decent entry wages.
Funny we were all bashing the other airlines, Jazz is not better.

It is all about me myself and I in this industry, what we leave for the next guys coming after us, nobody cares.
In ten years the entry wages for dash8/q400 will be 25k.

[tdp19]

Skyreg will be the only one left with decent entry wages.
Funny we were all bashing the other airlines, finaly Jazz is not better.

It is all about me myself and I in this industry, what we leave for the next guys coming after us, nobody cares.
In ten years the entry wages for dash8/q400 will be 25k.

I think you should read Joe Peppers post, do you think this is what we wanted to have such low rate's for new hires. They are worse than a reputable 704 company I worked for years ago. However, I can say confidently that you will be better off at Jazz than say GGN. I talked to a buddy at GGN, i got there pay rates, pension, per diems, and even with the low starting rate, you will make more at Jazz and have a far better lifestyle in terms of WAWCON's, benefits, pension. I can't speak of SKV because I don't know there Pay, Pension, Benefits, Etc.

Not to mention, there is another shoe to drop here that hasn't been discussed on here yet, and I will not be the first one to post about it but it is regarding new hires at Jazz. Wait and see, BUT I do not think that Jazz will have a hard time recruiting future pilots.

[countryhick]

I said before I will not discuss the TA until after the ratification vote. There is a lot more to the TA than wages. What I will say is that AC did not want ANY of the 100/300's to stay at JAZZ, the fact that we are keeping the 300's is in itself quite remarkable. If it went the other way there would not be any need for new hires for the foreseeable future.

That's it from me til after the vote!

[Heisenberg666]

I talked to a buddy at GGN, i got there pay rates, pension, per diems, and even with the low starting rate, you will make more at Jazz and have a far better lifestyle in terms of WAWCON's, benefits, pension.

GGN doesn't have a pension plan.

[fish4life]

The question is who / with what pilots would have filled the flying Jazz was doing if the pilots there said no and voted to strike in order to try keep Jazz what it is? Another thing I was wondering is how long until the government starts to crack down on per diems that are far above and beyond expenses and starts taxing them to ? My final thought is Jazz is going to have an extremely tough time filling seats with guys that have more than 1000 hours of experience at those new entry level wages and hopefully they do forcing the hand of chorus into raising them.

[flyloose]

When will the ratification vote process be completed?

[TrailerParkBoy]

I said before I will not discuss the TA until after the ratification vote. There is a lot more to the TA than wages. What I will say is that AC did not want ANY of the 100/300's to stay at JAZZ, the fact that we are keeping the 300's is in itself quite remarkable. If it went the other way there would not be any need for new hires for the foreseeable future.

That's it from me til after the vote!

Firstly, I am embarrassed to have recommended 5 pilots to Jazz last year when they could survive on the first 4 yr salary increase. Now 5 of 5 have decided not to join jazz and wait for something else. Sorry for wasting your time guys!

All I can say is if the TA passes, it won't be long before Jazz Pilots are flying their ass off (due lack of new hirea) to to the point of fatigue causing flights to be delayed, cancelled, or flown with 2 Captains at 3 times the wage!

[Lemon]

Pretty disappointing for someone who was already gone through the interview and sim eval process to find out the job you have applied for and put time and effort into will now be paying $12000 less than you were told in the interview. Ugh

[forcedwhore]

Any pilot in Canada who does not work for Jazz, should take it upon themselves and @#$! a Jazz pilot over in any which way they can, because they are fucking each and every one of us "Off the Street" guys for the rest of our careers as of Jan 29th.

[tdp19]

I talked to a buddy at GGN, i got there pay rates, pension, per diems, and even with the low starting rate, you will make more at Jazz and have a far better lifestyle in terms of WAWCON's, benefits, pension.

GGN doesn't have a pension plan.

Exactly! I'm sorry, I should have put NO pension.

[Fanblade]

But what do you have for new hires like you said? A B scale and their names won't even be on the list Jazz will submit to AC. What's the deal for the new guys once the first influx of pilots ( minimum 495 ) is at AC?
Who will want to join that ship????

AC will almost certainly do what every other major airline in NA is doing to attract low priced help at their regionals. Westjet included.

They will Eventually offer flow through to everyone. Sky, GGN, JAZZ, xxx. You put in your time? You get a flow through. You don't put in your time? You rely on being one of the 20%.

The Jazz flow through is likely step one. And likely the only step with top up pay.

You guys can bitch and moan as much as you want. It won't matter. At the end of the day capitalism wins. Compete or die.

Jazz has to change or it will die. The parties have found a way to get Chorus more competitive over time, while increasing opportunities for some of their pilots and avoiding the unemployment line for others.

It takes courage to make tough decisions.

Bravo!

[rudder]

The new hire pay rates are an embarrassment. They are at best justifiable for the 250 hr direct entry college grad. When that supply is exhausted, hopefully the law of supply and demand (to determine price equilibrium) will kick in and trigger improvements.

Having said that, the top scale Capt pay for a new-hire flying regional gauge aircraft (old D8's excepted) will be $150/hr in 2025. Top tier benefits. Per diems approaching Govt of Canada amounts. Best work rules in Canada.

Tell me one other carrier in Canada that will be offering this. Just one.......

A decade from now the majority of the original Jazz Capt will be retired. With the PMA in place, the Jazz seniority list will contain very few names that are on it today. That is the goal of the exercise. And for the replacements, you will have an enviable job with a reasonably quick upgrade at Jazz if you choose to stay or you will probably have the opportunity in a reasonably orderly and predictable fashion to go to AC who will be hiring over 1500 pilots during the next 10 years.

So, it would be hard to say that a number at Jazz is not worth anything in the future.

[Joe Pepper]

Jazz has become your vehicle to mainline. If that's what you want then I would be rushing to apply. Make the sacrifice. Don't moan and complain. Life is unfair. While you mope about, another, smarter more adaptable pilot is applying right now. The rules have changed and as such, you need to come to terms with this as quickly as possible. This may not be for everyone, and so be it. There are many great companies in this country that would be chomping at the bit for your services in the future. However, if this is what you want, stop listening to the noise, update your resume and take the leap. Jazz is a great company. You may need to take a hit for a few years but who cares? Look at the big picture. With a potential hiring boom coming in the next few years it will be worth it. Stop writing on this forum. Stop sulking and wondering about all the perceived inequalities of the world. Nobody is listening. Get out your resume, update and apply. Do it now. You may be shocked to know but I bet they are now being flooded by resumes. Only a small portion of the industry vocalizes their opinions on this forum. The rest are hunting like cheetahs looking for their next meal. I bet some of the more vocal ones are even doing it now as we speak. Don't lose out. Get your wife and kids out of house or get your mom to start making you dinner because you have a resume to update. The line in the sand has been drawn. The race has begun. Who will win and who will lose. It may be too late 3-4 years down the line when you finally let go of your inhibitions and anger and apply. The time is now. Stamp that seniority number as fast as you can. 80% is better than 20%. That's were I would throw my eggs. But hey we are all different. Good luck to everyone. Be the cheetah not the gopher. Apply now. Do it.

https://aviationcareers.ca/careersectio ... TBD-581-14

[rxl]

But what do you have for new hires like you said? A B scale and their names won't even be on the list Jazz will submit to AC. What's the deal for the new guys once the first influx of pilots ( minimum 495 ) is at AC?
Who will want to join that ship????

AC will almost certainly do what every other major airline in NA is doing to attract low priced help at their regionals. Westjet included.

They will Eventually offer flow through to everyone. Sky, GGN, JAZZ, xxx. You put in your time? You get a flow through. You don't put in your time? You rely on being one of the 20%.

The Jazz flow through is likely step one. And likely the only step with top up pay.

You guys can bitch and moan as much as you want. It won't matter. At the end of the day capitalism wins. Compete or die.

Jazz has to change or it will die. The parties have found a way to get Chorus more competitive over time, while increasing opportunities for some of their pilots and avoiding the unemployment line for others.

It takes courage to make tough decisions.

Bravo!

Good post.

As was communicated at the roadshow, the initial flow through is exclusive to Jazz. Once it is complete, the flow through will include the other Express carriers.

Unbridled capitalism needs to be tempered by a unified labour group.
This situation is a great example of that in action and how labour and management can work co-operatively to mutual benefit. It also demonstrates that labour's big hammer of strike action is not always the only or best option.

[rxl]

Pretty disappointing for someone who was already gone through the interview and sim eval process to find out the job you have applied for and put time and effort into will now be paying $12000 less than you were told in the interview. Ugh

If you have in your hand a bona fide offer of employment from Jazz made prior to ratification of the TA, then you should be paid at the rates in effect at the time the offer was made.