New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[rocket81]

But what do you have for new hires like you said? A B scale and their names won't even be on the list Jazz will submit to AC. What's the deal for the new guys once the first influx of pilots ( minimum 495 ) is at AC?
Who will want to join that ship????

AC will almost certainly do what every other major airline in NA is doing to attract low priced help at their regionals. Westjet included.

They will Eventually offer flow through to everyone. Sky, GGN, JAZZ, xxx. You put in your time? You get a flow through. You don't put in your time? You rely on being one of the 20%.

The Jazz flow through is likely step one. And likely the only step with top up pay.

You guys can bitch and moan as much as you want. It won't matter. At the end of the day capitalism wins. Compete or die.

Jazz has to change or it will die. The parties have found a way to get Chorus more competitive over time, while increasing opportunities for some of their pilots and avoiding the unemployment line for others.

It takes courage to make tough decisions.

Bravo!

Good post.

As was communicated at the roadshow, the initial flow through is exclusive to Jazz. Once it is complete, the flow through will include the other Express carriers.

Unbridled capitalism needs to be tempered by a unified labour group.
This situation is a great example of that in action and how labour and management can work co-operatively to mutual benefit. It also demonstrates that labour's big hammer of strike action is not always the only or best option.

The only message sent today to managements is this one:
"You can dig in our WAWCONs all the way down to misery, nobody will stop you, shareholders at AC must be laughing out loud and GGN won't be the one taking over Jazz routes "

Instead of trying to find smart ways to oppose this measures using ALPA resources, raise WAWCONs for everyone, seniors are again looking at their own little interest.

If seniors think they are not the next one coming after the juniors, you haven't understood capitalism yet.

When it will be the seniors turn, don't ask the junior pilots to back you up.
I'll be the first one to remind you guys, take the broom in the a**, it is capitalism.

It is the policy of devide and rule, that is it.

[Mig29]

Lemon,

not sure where 12,000 grand comes from. Difference from current $43 to proposed $36/hr rates is about $6700/yr. Which after about 30% deductions (pension, union, benefits) you end up around $380 bucks short then the current year 1 first officer. Is that a major decision maker not to join Jazz, when it offer the best over all package compared to other regional carriers in Canada. Best! Schedule, days off, per diem, allowances, pension...

Am I happy with the new pay scales? No I am not. Is it Jazz's fault they had to even the playing field? Definitively not! If I were on the negotiating committee, I would try for one last push and try to raise the bottom line....but I'm not and I'm not sure it would be possible. Union leaders say that's the best they could do. How do we know? I think there is room, but you just have to give something or offer another solution to their demands.

The PML is going to be a huge game changer to Jazz! No doubt, if the economy and AC continue to improve, it will alleviate many current problems at Jazz. Many will flow over, some will retire, new guys will move in and advance much sooner then current FOs. Of course, everything could fall apart, but that is something no one can predict.

So as Joe Pepper said, be smart and decide for yourself where do you want to be in the next 5-10 years? Decide today, so you are not left behind.

Good luck to all!

[Diadem]

Jazz has become your vehicle to mainline. If that's what you want then I would be rushing to apply. Make the sacrifice. Don't moan and complain. Life is unfair. While you mope about, another, smarter more adaptable pilot is applying right now. The rules have changed and as such, you need to come to terms with this as quickly as possible. This may not be for everyone, and so be it. There are many great companies in this country that would be chomping at the bit for your services in the future. However, if this is what you want, stop listening to the noise, update your resume and take the leap. Jazz is a great company. You may need to take a hit for a few years but who cares? Look at the big picture. With a potential hiring boom coming in the next few years it will be worth it. Stop writing on this forum. Stop sulking and wondering about all the perceived inequalities of the world. Nobody is listening. Get out your resume, update and apply. Do it now. You may be shocked to know but I bet they are now being flooded by resumes. Only a small portion of the industry vocalizes their opinions on this forum. The rest are hunting like cheetahs looking for their next meal. I bet some of the more vocal ones are even doing it now as we speak. Don't lose out. Get your wife and kids out of house or get your mom to start making you dinner because you have a resume to update. The line in the sand has been drawn. The race has begun. Who will win and who will lose. It may be too late 3-4 years down the line when you finally let go of your inhibitions and anger and apply. The time is now. Stamp that seniority number as fast as you can. 80% is better than 20%. That's were I would throw my eggs. But hey we are all different. Good luck to everyone. Be the cheetah not the gopher. Apply now. Do it.

https://aviationcareers.ca/careersectio ... TBD-581-14

I don't want to go to AC, and even if I did I wouldn't take a low-paying job because it may, someday down the line, possibly get me to a better position. Besides, the probability of getting to AC if you don't already have a seniority seems to be slim at best. As for upgrades, I would bet that there are going to be plenty of captains who'd rather stay at Jazz for the next ten years while they pad their pensions before they retire, and if most of the guys who go to AC are currently FOs then it really wouldn't accelerate upgrades at all. You'll spend close to a decade in the right seat, making pitiful money, and there's no guarantee you'll have a job at all come 2025. If there's really going to be a hiring boom, why would I leave a job that pays better than Jazz and make a terrible income when I could wait for a better opportunity in a couple of years? I'll make more in the ensuing period, and it just doesn't make sense for anyone who's making more than what Jazz will be paying to go there. There's too much uncertainty about whether the company will still exist in ten years, and whether you'd get upgraded before you get laid off, and whether you'd ever have even a minimal shot at AC. If there were long-term payoffs I could see taking a bit of a cut in the short term, like going to Encore, but if you go to Jazz now you'll make less money and get nothing out of it.

[Joe Pepper]

I see what you're saying. It's not for everyone. If you don't want to go to AC that's a choice you made and it's great. Plenty of opportunity everywhere from what I can see. But there is one thing I will say and this applies to anyone, anywhere. Don't let the fear of the unknown prevent you from making a move. Who knows what will happen in 10 years. For all we know, we could have First Contact with an terribly psychotic alien race that will destroy us all or or at the very least give us a life-long enema of sorts while we are marooned in cocoons awaiting our fate. The numbers are there. Read some of these posts carefully. If the economy doesn't collapse the potential for hiring is huge. You have to base your decisions on what you have presented in front of you not on what might happen if.... What kinda life is that? Safe and secure but still so utterly boring. We are in an industry that sometimes requires us to take a leap of faith. More often then not the people that have taken risks succeed. Of course there is always the chance that you can land flat on your face but thats life. You don't want to be left at the station with your bags in hand because you missed the train. I've seen it happen. Believe me. What I'm saying is, if you have to make the move, do it now. Nobody can predict the future and in this industry sometimes you need to take risks. We are talking about Jazz here after all not Jetsgo.

[Diadem]

But that's exactly the point: this isn't some start-up with the potential for huge growth, or some other grand opportunity that could result in untold fortunes being made, this is a mature airline that's winding down. I can take a chance and go to Jazz, but there's no reward in the end. If humanity is wiped out by an alien invasion in ten years, I'll really regret having spent that ten years at the bottom of a seniority list working the least-desirable shifts for a wage that I can't live on. The best-case scenario is that Jazz doesn't completely go under in 2025, and I avoid the layoffs. Why would anyone take a job for less money where the best outcome is not getting laid off? We're not talking about stock options for a company that could quadruple in size, or low pay for the first three years so you can make ten times as much later on, we're talking about taking a pay cut and never making that lost income back. The best-case scenario is that you eventually get back to the current payscale, but you would never exceed it. If Jazz doesn't go under in 2025 and I don't get laid off, will the flow agreement with AC still be in effect? If it is, and I eventually get high enough in seniority to take advantage of it, would it be worth spending ten or fifteen years making half of what I could potentially be getting, and then end up back on the bottom of the list at AC? I'd say no. I'd say it's better to stay where I am for a year or two until I could get a job as, say, a corporate jet captain, and make three times what a new hire at Jazz would get, with the same benefits and time off. I just don't see any advantage for someone who has that kind of experience to go to Jazz, and make 1/3 as much over the next decade. That means less money in my RRSP, and less interest being earned. I find it quite telling that in the past year Jazz has changed their hiring mins from 1500 hours and an ATPL to CPL with IATRA, and applicants with an ATPL are preferred; they're clearly planning on hiring pilots with 250 hours, because they'd be the only ones who would accept those wages. Five years from now, there won't be an FO at Jazz who will be able to be upgraded, because none of them will have the PIC time to get an ATPL.

[rocket81]

Huge +1 with Diadem.

Jazz is not going backrupt. No airlines have the infrastructure and budget to replace Jazz tomorow. Worst deal ever.

[forcedwhore]

To all "off the street" pilots in Canada, I suggest if you get a chance to F&## over a Jazz Pilot at any point in any way what so ever, do so. After this deal is signed, They will have essentially F$%cked each and every one of us in this industry, You jazz guys should be branded before you sign this deal, so that everyone in the industry can know who you are for the rest of your careers. That is a greedy bunch of LOSERS. Make no wonder the mainline guys never acknowledge any of you in passing. You are COWARDS!

[Maxpwr]

Hey guys don't lose focus on the most important part of all this.........."DON'T WORRY, JOE'S OK!"

How much does he get this year?

[Black Cat]

Wow so much HATE out there....

Just want to bring up a couple of things;



I was the first one to say in the crew room I would rather see Jazz sink in 2020 than take a bad contract.


Any new hire has the opportunity to make what a current jazz pilot makes after this deal is ratified. There are just 3 years added it the bottom of the scale. A new hire can still top out at 120k per year with a pension compared to ??? Sh@T

If the music stops while you're at jazz it still has the best wages and working conditions of any regional in Canada, probably North America. The DC is second only to Air Canada's.

I am 100% FOR this agreement and the flow and if we did not have a veteran MEC and negotiating team working for us we would be screwed.

Still a career airline and top notch no matter what the ignoramus trolls say.

Thank you MEC and NEGOTIATING TEAM.

[Joe Pepper]

I mean seriously how are you going to $&(& over a Jazz pilot now? You gonna bud in front of them at the Tim's lineup or give them a scornful look when they walk by you at the airport in their crisp new Air Canada uniform? Let's stop acting like spoiled children. This was never your job to begin with. They have served Air Canada for decades and deserve what they got. For a bunch of losers they did pretty good for themselves I think. Don't you wish you were a loser too? And by the way, only a coward would come to a forum and say what you just said. I might be pushing it but I think that was a bit of a threat. Maybe not a direct one but you're just on the cusp. For all you creepers out there, don't let envy get the best of you. Apply now and beat the rush. Look out for yourself and don't get caught up in the bull$;@&.

[forcedwhore]

I mean seriously how are you going to $&(& over a Jazz pilot now? You gonna bud in front of them at the Tim's lineup or give them a scornful look when they walk by you at the airport in their crisp new Air Canada uniform? Let's stop acting like spoiled children. This was never your job to begin with. They have served Air Canada for decades and deserve what they got. For a bunch of losers they did pretty good for themselves I think. Don't you wish you were a loser too? And by the way, only a coward would come to a forum and say what you just said. I might be pushing it but I think that was a bit of a threat. Maybe not a direct one but you're just on the cusp. For all you creepers out there, don't let envy get the best of you. Apply now and beat the rush. Look out for yourself and don't get caught up in the bull$;@&.

A threat? Seriously? Man you Jazz guys are truly cowards, go cry to your mommy about it. Is she going to drop you off on your first day too?

JAZZ COWARD

[Joe Pepper]

Actually, I'm an Air Canada pilot. Don't hate. You sound like a little kid having a hissy fit. Be an adult and apologize.

[forcedwhore]

I am a bit older then a little kid, and yes I am having a hissy fit.

Easy to say for you, you are sitting pretty nice where you are, I've been slaving my guts out for 4 years on a piece of shit turbo prop thats seen its day in the mid 80's. I've finally got what I needed to go to Mainline, just waiting for the damn application window to open. I've been hearing all this great news about what AC is planning to do in the next couple of years and then I get this info today in the middle of fucking no where, now I sit in a shitty hotel room where it's -100 outside wondering what in the @#$! is my plan now? I always thought Jazz guys were a strange bunch, like tree huggers or granolish or something. But now I figured it out, they are COWARDS!

[Joe Pepper]

I feel for you. I get it. Just don't go slanging people you don't know.

[AllClutch]

You do realize that 95% of Jazz pilots paid their dues in shitty old King Airs too right? (me)
The other 5% were just smarter than you and went to a 4 year college with a well advertised flow to Jazz. Wasn't a secret.
Also the flow is Air Canada's doing not Jazz or ALPA or ACPA so why aren't you mad at them?
Stop acting Holier than thou like you the only person who's ever flogged a Navajo around.

[teacher]

To all "off the street" pilots in Canada, I suggest if you get a chance to F&## over a Jazz Pilot at any point in any way what so ever, do so. After this deal is signed, They will have essentially F$%cked each and every one of us in this industry, You jazz guys should be branded before you sign this deal, so that everyone in the industry can know who you are for the rest of your careers. That is a greedy bunch of LOSERS. Make no wonder the mainline guys never acknowledge any of you in passing. You are COWARDS!

I've been called a lot of things for being a Jazz pilot but never a coward or greedy

Bottom feeder, scab, thief under cutter and job taker

Reason: flying for wages imposed on us by a bankrupt Air Canada

Stupid, ignorant, asking for a lay off, responsible for the downfall of Jazz post 2020

Reason: challenging jazz management, Air Canada and Calin himself with a strike vote and work to rule I order to get the contract we all felt we deserved

Expensive help, over paid, self righteous, leach, mill stone sinking ship

Reason: working under a quality collective agreement that paid as fair a wage as possible

And now we're greedy, sell outs

Reason: having to ratify a TA that includes a flow through agreement negotiated WITHOUT our union between our company and our major supplier without our input. Facing a 30% cut in airframes and corresponding crew reductions as well as a threat of even more reductions post 2020 we may do what we have to in order to survive.

There is more to this TA and PMA than has been released. I'm sympathetic to your situation but you have NO IDEA what many of these pilots including me have gone through in our careers. Chances are most of them have been flying since before you had a license. Strikes, mergers, 9/11, SARS, bankruptcies, financial meltdown, no hiring for YEARS and never ending cost and WAWCON pressures.

Again, good luck in all your careers, heed some of the advice that was shared in this thread. It will serve you well.

Oh, and stop being a self entitled arrogant prick. It won't serve you well in the future and it's bad for your blood pressure when you don't get your way. Work hard and have patience. Good things will come in due time when you've put in enough blood sweat and tears like many of us have.

[Sheldoncooper]

I am a bit older then a little kid, and yes I am having a hissy fit.

Easy to say for you, you are sitting pretty nice where you are, I've been slaving my guts out for 4 years on a piece of shit turbo prop thats seen its day in the mid 80's. I've finally got what I needed to go to Mainline, just waiting for the damn application window to open. I've been hearing all this great news about what AC is planning to do in the next couple of years and then I get this info today in the middle of fucking no where, now I sit in a shitty hotel room where it's -100 outside wondering what in the @#$! is my plan now? I always thought Jazz guys were a strange bunch, like tree huggers or granolish or something. But now I figured it out, they are COWARDS!

You need a spanking. Here is a thought, quit your job and work at starbucks, its warm and they have benefits.

[altiplano]

I've been slaving my guts out for 4 years on a piece of shit turbo prop

4 whole years? Jeezus... Life is tough...

Seriously - everyone wants to get to AC yesterday - I disagree with Jazz guys getting any better shot than the next guy and this reserved seniority # thing isn't going to fly - but everyone puts the time in and 4 years ain't sh!t...

[Joe Pepper]

He's just upset. He feels like he's between a rock and hard place with no out. You can vent but be civil. There are plenty of ways you can say what you want to say without offending a group of people you know nothing about. There are plenty of options. Don't let this get the best of you. I know what it feels like. I think we have all felt that way once. Just take a pause before you press send next time.

[aV1aTOr]

I am a bit older then a little kid, and yes I am having a hissy fit.

Easy to say for you, you are sitting pretty nice where you are, I've been slaving my guts out for 4 years on a piece of shit turbo prop thats seen its day in the mid 80's. I've finally got what I needed to go to Mainline, just waiting for the damn application window to open. I've been hearing all this great news about what AC is planning to do in the next couple of years and then I get this info today in the middle of fucking no where, now I sit in a shitty hotel room where it's -100 outside wondering what in the @#$! is my plan now? I always thought Jazz guys were a strange bunch, like tree huggers or granolish or something. But now I figured it out, they are COWARDS!

LOL. 4 years. You should get on the phone with AC, I'm sure they will have your 777 job ready as soon as they find out.

As has been said, you need to be spanked and put right to bed. No comic books either!

[rudder]

Clearly there are young pups on this thread that aren't even aware that through the years there have been many different pilot hiring programs in place at AC involving its subsidiaries and commercial partners. As a matter of fact, at one point there was only one way to get a new-hire position at AC and that was to be actively employed at one of the AC Regional airlines. 100% of new-hire spots went to AC Connector pilots. And there were reserved numbers as well as credit (partial) for service for pay and vacation. So by comparison, this latest incarnation is modest at best and still allows 20% OTS hiring at AC.

So for the aspiring AC new hire who is here to slag the current Jazz pilots, just be aware that many of the current Capt at AC that you hope someday to be flying with arrived at AC from the AC regional network via one of these preferred hiring arrangements. They know all about paying their dues and were flying AC passengers around for years before they were able to attain their position on the AC pilot seniority list.

[teacher]

Easy to say for you, you are sitting pretty nice where you are, I've been slaving my guts out for 4 years on a piece of shit turbo prop thats seen its day in the mid 80's. I've finally got what I needed to go to Mainline, just waiting for the damn application window to open. I've been hearing all this great news about what AC is planning to do in the next couple of years and then I get this info today in the middle of fucking no where, now I sit in a shitty hotel room where it's -100 outside wondering what in the @#$! is my plan now? I always thought Jazz guys were a strange bunch, like tree huggers or granolish or something. But now I figured it out, they are COWARDS!

I don't believe there'll be any reserved spots. From what I understand you might be able to defer your spot BUT you won't be able to accrue seniority until you are officially working for AC.

I don't mean to belittle your experience but 4 years? You wanna bitch about 4 years! The guys in my intake of new hires took 10 or more years just to get to Jazz!!! The ones senior to me? AFTER paying their dues up North some spent years on reserve or layed off. I spent almost more time in between flying jobs due to bankruptcies, lay offs and contract work doing whatever non flying jobs I could to pay the rent because there were NO FLYING JOBS out there than you've spent in the North. Spare us all the sob story, most of us have been there and done that as much as or more than you.

Save your angry, selfish and hateful rant for someone who actually deserves it. Not your fellow pilots who've endured more hardship in their career than you've ever cared to know.

[rxl]

A threat? Seriously? Man you Jazz guys are truly cowards, go cry to your mommy about it. Is she going to drop you off on your first day too?

JAZZ COWARD

What do you think a member of an airline's flight operations hiring committee would think of an individual that posts comments like this? Is this the kind of attitude you think they are looking for?
Don't forget that there is no such thing as a truly anonymous forum.

[c182rgt]

[quote]I don't mean to belittle your experience but 4 years? You wanna bitch about 4 years! The guys in my intake of new hires took 10 or more years just to get to Jazz!!! The ones senior to me? AFTER paying their dues up North some spent years on reserve or layed off. I spent almost more time in between flying jobs due to bankruptcies, lay offs and contract work doing whatever non flying jobs I could to pay the rent because there were NO FLYING JOBS out there than you've spent in the North. Spare us all the sob story, most of us have been there and done that as much as or more than you.

Save your angry, selfish and hateful rant for someone who actually deserves it. Not your fellow pilots who've endured more hardship in their career than you've ever cared to know.[/quote]

Yep 12 years for me and I am only at Jazz for 3 years now! It means for me to have my number picked for the PMA means maybe another 6 years means about 20 years of paid due before a position at AirCanada. Pour guy 4 years and crying.

Sorry for the bad code here not used to post but it's very entertaining to read lately!

[countryhick]

Wow, big first day forcedwhore.....