New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Duke15]

I feel for you Forcedwhore, im in the same kind of boat. But I agree with the others screaming about it on the forum isnt gonig to solve anything nor is being rude to jazz pilots from now on. I do find it funny how a few jazz pilots were angry at GGN pilots(who actually voted down lowering wages for new hires and agaisnt the rj wages even though the union president went behind their back and signed an lou after ratification) gave them dirty looks, yelled at them in elevators and now your probably going to do what they didnt. Listen at the end of the day this is a good deal for current jazz employees a lot of the senior ppl really do deserve it. If the contract is signed I wont hold anythin against them, unfortunatly that is the state of our industry. Just wish I had a chance to go to a mainline without having to switch companies again to get a fair chance.

[Inverted2]

To all "off the street" pilots in Canada, I suggest if you get a chance to F&## over a Jazz Pilot at any point in any way what so ever, do so. After this deal is signed, They will have essentially F$%cked each and every one of us in this industry, You jazz guys should be branded before you sign this deal, so that everyone in the industry can know who you are for the rest of your careers. That is a greedy bunch of LOSERS. Make no wonder the mainline guys never acknowledge any of you in passing. You are COWARDS!

Don't feed the troll!

Someone stopped taking his happy pills.

[Johnny#5]

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[Radiocaster]

I don't think it is anyone's fault at Jazz if this contract has been presented to us. Management or pilots. Most of the members on this forum don't know what it is to wait for five years just for a good news. ANY kind of good news.

Sure this TA has it's share of bad aspects. But the diference is that there is, as last, a litle bit of sun on the horizon. If your plan was to stay at Jazz and retire, you have a solid 11 years ahead of you. If you wanted to go to AC, you have an opportuniy tha did not exist before. Don't forget, there's 300-400 guys that had been PFO'd by AC. This is a second chance that was not hoped for anymore. The guy I would not like to be right now, is a 40-50 years old junior captain/senior f/o. Those are the one that have a dificult decision to take in the upcoming week.

Now for the new hires. The target for Jazz before was 25-30 years old with 2500-3000 hrs. Now the ball park wil be 20-22 yo, 1500 hrs. With a three years delay in the payscale, that means that you have the same career picture than most of the guys at Jazz right now. Exept that you can actualy hope to be captain in 5 years. Don't forget, there will be a minimum of 900 present Jazz pilot that will be gone in 10 years.

The good years at Jazz was 2005-2009. 133 aircraft, a lot of movement, status pay scale. Those days are long gone, it has been all downhill from there exept for the salaries. I mean, 16% markup on operating cost. Are you kidding me? Jazz management could have been a bunch of monkeys throwing bananas at braindead employees, and the company would still have made a lot of money. Even 12% is pretty sweet. Everybody could have been sitting on his ass instead of putting effort to reduce cost, but they still did it. Because oterwise, AC woud have smite Jazz even harder.

The cost structure Jazz will have is a modern days reality in this industry. It has been, still is and will continue to be a great company to work for, with a lot of formidable people in it. I wish everybody good luck for the future.

[Squid]

interesting comments flying around. One thing everyone seemed to agree with is that flow will always be around. The language is there for sure but there is one little thing that nobody seems to mention or care about and that is the economy. Who says the big red AC engine won't idle down? sure we have retirements etc but with the dollar on a big slide and more to go imo, oil dropping and the patch on a big slowdown I see a very real potential of the airlines cutting capacity and not necessarily replacing retiree pilots... All of our parts are in US dollars, all of new frames are paid in US dollars, the vacation packages are paid in US dollars etc. It's a big hit.
I just don't see the mass exodus happening as planned due to these reasons above.
There is a lot of hypocracy in this thread too. Think of all the starting wage threads....just sayin.

[MCB]

I am a bit older then a little kid, and yes I am having a hissy fit.

Easy to say for you, you are sitting pretty nice where you are, I've been slaving my guts out for 4 years on a piece of shit turbo prop thats seen its day in the mid 80's. I've finally got what I needed to go to Mainline, just waiting for the damn application window to open. I've been hearing all this great news about what AC is planning to do in the next couple of years and then I get this info today in the middle of fucking no where, now I sit in a shitty hotel room where it's -100 outside wondering what in the @#$! is my plan now? I always thought Jazz guys were a strange bunch, like tree huggers or granolish or something. But now I figured it out, they are COWARDS!

How I'd love a four day pairing with you...
At which stage of the Jazz hiring process were you unsuccessful? Best of luck with your mainline application, bro.

Signed,
A Proud, Tree-Hugging Coward.

[aV1aTOr]

From following the sentiments on this thread, it seems that most Jazz guys realize the inevitable and a the reality of their situation. Are future new hires going to suffer for it? Probably. Are current Jazz pilots responsible for that? Of course not. We all know why there is a new starting pay scale being introduced.
New hires at AC are on a lower starting pay scale. The door to Westjet now has Encore written on it. This is the reality of our profession in 2015. Yes we can run around in circles playing the blame game and going on about banding together but really it's nothing more than wishful thinking.
If you guys vote this through, it is because you are protecting yourselves, as you should. I have a hard time believing any ACPA pilot would ever hold that against you, since that is exactly how our union operates as well.
Jazz pilots wanting to go to mainline increase their chances. Jazz pilots wanting to stay keep the same pay and working conditions. Seems most of the negativity on here is from guys that are not at either Jazz or Air Canada, which begs the question why they deserve a say at all. (not implying that AC guys should have a say, of course. Just my 5c)

[Kosiw]

Based on the new salary structure what will fo's make monthly in terms of salary,perdiems,etc.....and what will monthly blocks look like?

[Stinky]

interesting comments flying around. One thing everyone seemed to agree with is that flow will always be around. The language is there for sure but there is one little thing that nobody seems to mention or care about and that is the economy. Who says the big red AC engine won't idle down?

I've been wondering the same thing. It'll be a tough choice for an FO that won't see AC for at least another 5 years and then will be on FO salary cap at AC for another 4 years. They could be making $70K for the next decade only to see the economy tank and hiring stop.

[Sulako]

Just a quick reminder from your friendly neighbourhood moderator, imploring you to please play nicely.

Please discuss the topics, and avoid attacking the people with whom you may differ.

Threats and mean behaviours make kittens cry. They also can result in bannination, and nobody wants that.

That is all

[Mig29]

interesting comments flying around. One thing everyone seemed to agree with is that flow will always be around. The language is there for sure but there is one little thing that nobody seems to mention or care about and that is the economy. Who says the big red AC engine won't idle down?

I've been wondering the same thing. It'll be a tough choice for an FO that won't see AC for at least another 5 years and then will be on FO salary cap at AC for another 4 years. They could be making $70K for the next decade only to see the economy tank and hiring stop.

Yeah, I agree. As I said in my post above, this is all great and all, but is subject to one major piece going forward. Economy. And this applies to everyone...Flow at AC or WJ is only a question of current economy going forward. Time will tell.

[teacher]

Based on the new salary structure what will fo's make monthly in terms of salary,perdiems,etc.....and what will monthly blocks look like?

Numbers are close:

$36,000/year salary
FOs will top off at 15 years at $75/hour
Captains $120/year topping off at 20 years
2% raise on top of pay table raises for the life of the contract.
$12-$15,000/year per diem
Shoe, uniform, aviation medical, passport and other expenses
Pretty good benefits: Chiro, massage, dental, drug etc etc etc
Very good short and long term disability insurance
Pretty good DC pension plan

I'd bet some of the best work rules in the country. For sure the best reserve rules by far.

[Squid]

What would the pure hourly rate be for a starting FO? Based off what block? Is the reserve guarantee less?
I don't think it's fair to count a shoe allowance and perdiem as to the bottom line of income. That allowance is meant for your food and shoes....unless you eat cookies all day and wear old crappy looking shoes for 5 years. Essentially what I gather is alpa cut the pie up and the mec decided to send some of that money to top up salaries during flow vs keeping the status quo for a new hire. Is that fair to say teacher?

[FlyHigh13]

I'm curious as to how you come up with $36,000/year salary. I'm not saying it's not true, but I've been told starting hourly rate is $36/hr. Based on 80 hours a month that is $34,500 gross income.

Can you count on more than 80 hours/ month or is there more to it than that? (Other ways to top off block hours?). Or it could be the simple case my numbers are wrong.

Thanks

[AllClutch]

I've never seen the YYC Q400 block less than 82.5 min.
If your on the classic in YYC you can realibly count on 85 hours most months.

[FlyHigh13]

Got it. Thank you.

[Canoehead]

NBG also helps. And with the new TA, unlimited WDO's (1.5x).

[Stinky]

Pretty good benefits: Chiro, massage, dental, drug etc etc etc
Very good short and long term disability insurance

Remember you pay for these as well as your ALPA dues so you may find your take home less than expected. Somebody will have to post more accurate numbers, but I think family dental was something like $2000 a year. If you have a spouse with benefits, these can be waived.

The Per Diems are generous but $12K to $15K seems a tad high. That would be the case if you never took a vacation and worked overtime and 4 day pairings. If you're on reserve you may have some pretty lean months and a month with vacation is a noticeable reduction too.

[ourkid2000]

These numbers blow my mind....

I am no pilot, I'm an AME. However, what kind of a person would accept 36k a year for a F/O position? I made that kind of money as a Ramp Rat 15 years ago! Sheesh, I bet I could dig out an old ROE from those days to prove it.

[Mig29]

sad, isn't it??

I mean we are talking about 2015, and I remember years ago, AC was offering entry lever pay of around 34K/year....someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And now we are back at those SAME pay rates. Brutal, I agree.

[TopperHarley]

When I started in Jazz in '08, the pay was around $37000. Starting pay at AC was around $39000 up until a few years ago.

[ourkid2000]

Pffft....

I have to say, I am amazed you guys still do this for a living. Anyone who accepts that kind of money is selling themselves unbelievably short and honestly, you get what you deserve.

If I was a pilot and was offered that kind of money to start and, at the same time, my local McDonalds 5 mins from my house offered me a similar wage (which in this case is probably not far off)..........I would take the McDonalds job. I'm not even ****'ing joking.

I'm serious. I would take the McDonalds job every time. I bet in 15 years, I'd be making 70K at McDonalds too.

[Mig29]

But there are not shiny metal tubes at McDonald's, right???

[teacher]

I'm in no way defending that pay rate. It can't be defended, it sucks, no doubt.

The numbers were a very quick ipad calculator mash up. I used 82.5 hour blocking average and maybe a little high on per diems. Maybe closer to $12-$14,000 depending on what kind of flying you do. Doing four 4 day pairings I easily exceed $1000 a month per diems. Don't know the exact numbers.

As for including everything, compensation is the total package. I was talking to a friend at another Canadian airline about benefits. The phrase "not covered" came up a lot. Unlike ours at Jazz where I am covered.

[ourkid2000]

That "covered" you speak of.....what's that costing you? Your benefits are hideously expensive from what I've seen.......perhaps this has improved?