Too easy

[JeppsOnFire]

Reading through the Carson thread about (in)experience and upgrades, I couldn't help my thoughts drift over to Encore and the upgrades happening over there. I have more examples that make me pause just a little, but I'll share a couple:

I know of one driver over there, thousands of hours of instructing time, maybe 700hrs as a Turbo Prop FO, then upgraded to Captain - within months of that upgrade, said driver was hired as DEC at Encore.

I also know of 2 others that had approx. 2500-3000TT, but both only had a few hundred, I'd be surprised if they had 1000hrs MPIC on a piston twin, flying bags. No other PIC logged. Both have now been upgraded to Captain at Encore.

I am a little in awe of this process. At similar TT and maybe a hair more MPIC, I felt a little underqualified to fly left seat on a small jet (albeit it was international flying). When I moved on to a mid-size jet, I felt I was barely qualified to be in the left seat there, seeing all the grey hairs driving them at the time. These young Encore guys are operating a 65,000lb airplane on tight schedules in all weather, and they seem to be doing it just fine.

Now my question is: Is this a testament to the high level of training at Encore, the screening process and quality of the pilots hired, or is it that airline flying is so scripted and routine, with extensive company oversight, that it can be accomplished with little effort by the crew? Basically, is it just really easy to be a pilot?

There's the old idea that the first job you have as a pilot is the hardest and they only get easier from there. I would agree, flying a circling NDB in snow showers at night single pilot in a piston twin with 1100 hrs TT was pretty damn hard. Landing a jet on a beautiful sunny day in the Bahamas is relatively easy.

I have a suspicion comments will migrate toward a monetary issue, but I'd like to focus on how 'low' time guys can run an airline.

Thoughts?

[Cat Driver]

Now my question is: Is this a testament to the high level of training at Encore, the screening process and quality of the pilots hired, or is it that airline flying is so scripted and routine, with extensive company oversight, that it can be accomplished with little effort by the crew? Basically, is it just really easy to be a pilot?

It is easier to be a pilot when you use the " Paint by numbers " method of doing it.

[glorifieddriver]

I am a low time guy, so my input may be makes no sense or may be even no right to give input...but in any way there are people that should not fly and some that should. It depends on your personality and life experience. If you are a cowboy, you will always stay one, you will fly over weight, you will try to sneak in extra 50' below minimums to not go around in a familiar airport etc. If you are overly reserved, you will never make command doubting yourself. That doubt might eventually kill you and a few hundred behind the door in the back. You kind of have to be in the middle, Firm, Thoughtful and not over cocky. Then may be you can make a great captain at 3000. Lets say you fly around 500ish hours a year so by 3000 you are 6 years in the industry, if you have not learned some things in the 6 years, perhaps another job awaits you where you will progress more?

I think there is no such thing as a real average. The average is established so that even if a bad seed makes it through, the high requirements have an effect of bringing down risk. In reality, everyone is an individual person with individual capabilities.

[Cat Driver]

+ 1 ...!!!

[FOD_Vacuum]

JeppsOnFire, I know of whom you are talking about in your first example. I was also shocked by this individuals quick upgrade to Captain at Encore. I don't think more time necessarily means safer (unless your the insurance company), but I am sure if Encore doesn't feel safe upgrading, then they wouldn't do it. If you go to Europe for example, you see 250 hr guys flying shiny jets no problem because they were trained properly and went through a rigorous selection process. I recently read a blog about Aer Lingus having 3000 applicants for 12 pilot training spots. This is their way of an "in" to fly over there. For us it is basically buy your license, and hope you have good connections to get you that first job.

I think our view is skewed in Canada because the stereotype-image for an Airline captain would be to have multiple thousands of hours and years of experience and "seniority". Could this also mean the supply of "qualified pilots" its actually decreasing or is it just a rapidly growing company requiring captains right away? From Encores perspective, would it be easier to bring a captain from the outside and train them, or upgrade an equally qualified FO with 500 hrs right seat Q400 experience? Could the Airlines' quality of pilots be decreasing to meet the present supply and demand of qualified pilots? I have left a lot of of open-ended questions for some food for thoughts. 2-3000 flight hours seems to be the norm for new recruits (assuming younger pilots) because they are more trainable than 10,000+ hr pilots with potential bad habits and a longer learning curve due to age.

I know a pilot that I flew with who has 5000+ hours and has been fired from at least 6 operators, but is still flying because insurance says "he has the hours, so he should be better than the 250-1000 pilot". In my opinion, this person is not fit to fly. So really, hours should not be a sole factor in determining ones ability. Like glorifieddriver mentioned, its also your personality, maturity and the way your common sense dictates your actions.

[Bede]

If you go to Europe for example, you see 250 hr guys flying shiny jets no problem because they were trained properly and went through a rigorous selection process.

Now shut off the flight director and ask them to do a visual approach.

[iflyforpie]

Or disable a stall warning vane or air data port....

[glorifieddriver]

Or disable a stall warning vane or air data port....

This can throw off even a senior crew...this happened on an Air France flight, on an Airbus...

Nobody is insured from a situation that will puzzle you in that specific moment.

[Jasper]

Between SOP's and equipment reliability airlines can reasonably safely push minimally qualified pilots through to the left seat. Even Wardair had some relatively lightly experienced guys being fast tracked to upgrade.

[squash junky]

Now shut off the flight director and ask them to do a visual approach.

I was cpt 737 for 8 yrs and flew with many 200hr+ pilots straight out of school.
No problem shutting off the flight director, or flying engine failures, visual approaches etc.
They also taught me a lot.

I felt a little underqualified to fly left seat on a small jet (albeit it was international flying). When I moved on to a mid-size jet, I felt I was barely qualified to be in the left seat there, seeing all the grey hairs driving them at the time.

I felt under qualified when I became FO 744 with 0 hrs jet time
I felt under qualified when I became cpt 737
I felt under qualified when I became cpt 767
I felt under qualified when I became cpt 777
and after 10 yrs of that
the only thing I have felt qualified for is what I am doing now.
Retirement.
Thank god for training

[PositiveRate27]

I think its a testament to quality training, and rigid adherence to SOP's in a scripted environment. It's the same reason why the bulk of fighter pilots are in their mid-late 20's and only have 1500ish hours but can push a supersonic fighter to its limits.

Correct me if I'm wrong but its nearly 2.5-3 months of training before an Encore candidate see's line flying? That's a far cry from the 3 day ground school, 5hr PPC and zero line indoc at the 703 level.

[yycflyguy]

Now shut off the flight director and ask them to do a visual approach.

I was cpt 737 for 8 yrs and flew with many 200hr+ pilots straight out of school.
No problem shutting off the flight director, or flying engine failures, visual approaches etc.
They also taught me a lot.

I felt a little underqualified to fly left seat on a small jet (albeit it was international flying). When I moved on to a mid-size jet, I felt I was barely qualified to be in the left seat there, seeing all the grey hairs driving them at the time.

I felt under qualified when I became FO 744 with 0 hrs jet time
I felt under qualified when I became cpt 737
I felt under qualified when I became cpt 767
I felt under qualified when I became cpt 777
and after 10 yrs of that
the only thing I have felt qualified for is what I am doing now.
Retirement.
Thank god for training

Great post! Happy retirement!

[KK7]

I am a Captain at Encore, I came in DEC with significantly more experience than that of the OP's example. When I came here I was ready to fly with some inexperienced FOs and thought maybe I'd be carrying a lot of the workload as a result. I was very wrong. I have been very impressed with the quality of the pilots at Encore, from pilots with experience varying from 2000 hours to 7000+ hours. Some of these pilots do not meet the matrix required for upgrade, but I have no concerns about any of these pilots when they get upgraded. They know the airplane, they have good hands and feet, and most importantly they have excellent attitudes.

I know in the past some pilots did not make it through the upgrade process, that's when the upgrade matrix came in. I don't necessarily agree with the method of filtering candidates, however I think it is a testament that if they felt someone could not make a good Captain, they did not let them get through the training, and came back to them once they gained some more experience. The ones that do make it through make it through a rigorous upgrade program.

When hiring pilots, I know some find it controversial that they focus a lot more on behavioural aspects and being "westjetty" than simply evaluating skill and experience, but I think the process has done a good job at filtering out bad attitudes. Of course the process isn't perfect, some may get filtered out that should not have, and some will slip through the cracks. But overall I feel we have a really great group of pilots - positive, humble, always willing to learn, and are not willing to push things when they are not supposed to. People speak up when they have to, and when they do management listens and something gets done.

Encore is still a work in progress, and it gets better every day. But so far, very impressed with the pilots.

[KK7]

After writing all that, I forgot what I initially intended to say...

The Q400 is not a complicated aircraft to fly, nor is following IFR procedures. I think here in Canada we get used to seeing older experienced pilots flying as Captains on the regional turboprops thanks to the way the industry is set up, not because you need a huge amount of experience to fly them. It seems surprising to suddenly see a young group flying a major regional airline, but I think the reality is you don't need to be a space shuttle pilot to fly these planes, despite what some may say.

[calgaryguy]

Reading through the Carson thread about (in)experience and upgrades, I couldn't help my thoughts drift over to Encore and the upgrades happening over there. I have more examples that make me pause just a little, but I'll share a couple:

I know of one driver over there, thousands of hours of instructing time, maybe 700hrs as a Turbo Prop FO, then upgraded to Captain - within months of that upgrade, said driver was hired as DEC at Encore.

I also know of 2 others that had approx. 2500-3000TT, but both only had a few hundred, I'd be surprised if they had 1000hrs MPIC on a piston twin, flying bags. No other PIC logged. Both have now been upgraded to Captain at Encore.

I am a little in awe of this process. At similar TT and maybe a hair more MPIC, I felt a little underqualified to fly left seat on a small jet (albeit it was international flying). When I moved on to a mid-size jet, I felt I was barely qualified to be in the left seat there, seeing all the grey hairs driving them at the time. These young Encore guys are operating a 65,000lb airplane on tight schedules in all weather, and they seem to be doing it just fine.

Now my question is: Is this a testament to the high level of training at Encore, the screening process and quality of the pilots hired, or is it that airline flying is so scripted and routine, with extensive company oversight, that it can be accomplished with little effort by the crew? Basically, is it just really easy to be a pilot?

There's the old idea that the first job you have as a pilot is the hardest and they only get easier from there. I would agree, flying a circling NDB in snow showers at night single pilot in a piston twin with 1100 hrs TT was pretty damn hard. Landing a jet on a beautiful sunny day in the Bahamas is relatively easy.

I have a suspicion comments will migrate toward a monetary issue, but I'd like to focus on how 'low' time guys can run an airline.

Thoughts?

They word I have heard is that they are having a lot of problems with these guys, hence the new upgrade requirements. These individuals are not going to tell you about their "issues" nor will a company like Westjet want to tarnish their reputation. I know few at Encore very similar to those mentioned above who had a lot of trouble thinking outside the box. Its a good thing airline flying is all about being inside the box.

[loopa]

I am a Captain at Encore, I came in DEC with significantly more experience than that of the OP's example. When I came here I was ready to fly with some inexperienced FOs and thought maybe I'd be carrying a lot of the workload as a result. I was very wrong. I have been very impressed with the quality of the pilots at Encore, from pilots with experience varying from 2000 hours to 7000+ hours. Some of these pilots do not meet the matrix required for upgrade, but I have no concerns about any of these pilots when they get upgraded. They know the airplane, they have good hands and feet, and most importantly they have excellent attitudes.

I know in the past some pilots did not make it through the upgrade process, that's when the upgrade matrix came in. I don't necessarily agree with the method of filtering candidates, however I think it is a testament that if they felt someone could not make a good Captain, they did not let them get through the training, and came back to them once they gained some more experience. The ones that do make it through make it through a rigorous upgrade program.

When hiring pilots, I know some find it controversial that they focus a lot more on behavioural aspects and being "westjetty" than simply evaluating skill and experience, but I think the process has done a good job at filtering out bad attitudes. Of course the process isn't perfect, some may get filtered out that should not have, and some will slip through the cracks. But overall I feel we have a really great group of pilots - positive, humble, always willing to learn, and are not willing to push things when they are not supposed to. People speak up when they have to, and when they do management listens and something gets done.

Encore is still a work in progress, and it gets better every day. But so far, very impressed with the pilots.

Great post. I just think that at the end of the day you have pilot's that "get it" and pilot's that don't. I have flown with some 8000+ hour captain's that would probably qualify to pick any job due to their qualifications on paper. Put them in a cockpit, and it's a completely different story. Terrible attitudes, "I'm always right", and portraying opinion as fact, micro managers, etc...

I've also flown with Captains with much less experience, but were amazing. Great attitudes, were able to adopt different leadership styles depending on who their crew were, and were always able to manage the nuances to have a successful and synergistic happy crew.

I have said it before, and I say it again... Total time is important up until a point. After that point it doesn't become the sole stigma for your qualifications as a Captain. As is evident by the upgrade process at Encore today. They are doing extremely well.

To the ones that say people failed in the past - yes you're right. Rightfully so, and will get a shot once they are ready I would presume.

For the ones that argue experience is basically the end all be all of an upgrade, whose experience should be viewed as preferable for that left seat at Encore? The Twin Otter Captain that has 10, 000 hours of bush flying exp up north and multi engine piston pic prior to that, or the 3000 hour First Officer that has 2000 hours Q400 time in an Airline Operation? Yes the bush pilot can probably do some pretty crazy flying, and has great hands and feet. But is that really what's required of him/her at an airline level?

When you put things into perspective, you see how flight time in operations irrelevant to airline flying really have no bearing in determining your suitability for that captain seat. You could still be a great Q captain at 10, 000 hours, less so for your time spent as a bush pilot, and more so probably due to your ability to be a quick learner and not being set in your old ways. Which means what? You probably have a good attitude and have no entitlement issues crossed over into your new airline career.

[cyeg66]

Strictly anecdotal, but from the other side of the microphone, the pilots at Encore have given me no reason to doubt their abilities and proficiency. When I find myself (it's their asses on the line, when I really think about it) in a tight spot, I haven't hesitated to get them to do some pretty fancy flying to accomplish what I need. As a group, they've never let me down. I treat any of them like I do any seasoned vet with a recognizable voice flying in and out of YYC. I'm definitely unfamiliar with their pilot selection process but I can honestly say that from the outside looking in, it seems to be working and as such, is not the great calamity that has often been predicted. Be smart, be safe, and keep learning.