Why so little interest in tailwheel flying?

[cjpilot]

I learned ab initio on a 7ECA at a school that is very highly regarded by the posters on this site. I loved it because it was a new challenge and the airplane was always available. In fact, the only time I flew anything else was when the Citabria was down for maintenance and I didn't want to waste good flying weather.

Several years later, I had a friend who wanted to learn to fly. He owned his own tailwheel airplane but had no license. I tried to introduce him to another very well-respected school that has an 8KCAB, because there is no reason not to learn on a tailwheel - especially if you own one.

This effort was futile, however, when I was told by the Chief Pilot that ab intio was not only not possible on the Decathalon, it was illegal because of the lack of instruments in the back seat.

How there can be such a disconnect among those who are supposedly the experts on these matters escapes me and it is frustrating because it discourages newcomers to our hobby and our industry.

I believe my friend is now trying to find an instructor who will teach him on his own airplane.

[Bede]

Why fly this:



when you can fly this:


Relax, relax, I'm joking. Sadly many wouldn't.

[Cat Driver]

This effort was futile, however, when I was told by the Chief Pilot that ab intio was not only not possible on the Decathalon, it was illegal because of the lack of instruments in the back seat.

W O W....

That is why the industry needs a group of pilots to get together and offer skills upgrading to licensed pilots.

So we can get away from that mindset and re-teach people how fly without having to deal with the TC FTU mindset.

We could even offer to give basic airplane handling instruction to any of TC's flight training inspectors that want to learn how to fly so they understand what they are supposed to know.

[TomC]

For Southern Ontario, these guys have been around for a few years now: http://www.3pointaviator.com/

+1 for these guys. I have been a member since 2010 and had the chance to fly the Cub, Taylorcraft L-2 and PT26. I can attest to there being quite a bit of interest from young and older pilots in this type of flying. The organization has struggled to find the right airframes, however, and they have now purchased a Citab and a Decathlon and are moving to more "recent" aircraft. The older birds were having frequent maintenance troubles. Glenn and John are great guys. If you're in Southern Ontario, check it out! There isn't anything better than flying a Cub at 500 agl over the countryside with the door open!

[Cat Driver]

. The older birds were having frequent maintenance troubles.

That is why I chose to rebuild a Cub under the amateur built rules, I will end up with a new Cub that can be maintained by the builder / 'S.

Another suggestion is convert a Cessna 150 Aerobat to a tail wheel configuration.

[cap41]

I used to fly a 7EC 90hp, a few I proposed didn't even want to try, some guys only interested in the 777

This.

Seems these days no one flys for fun or because there interested in aviation, everyone just wants a job and unless tail wheel time becomes part of the CPL I doubt any of the new generation will ever care. If it doesn't get you into a shiny automated jet no one seems interested these days except the old timers that still love stick and rudder airplanes.

I just finished my PPL strictly for fun, I have little interest in commercial flying, I already have a good job. To me I would LOVE some tail wheel time, I have a feeling a tail dragger will show me how little I know about landing an airplane

+1

[ScottS]

I would be all over some tailwheel training if a reasonably priced option presented itself. Currently the only option around in the Vancouver/Squamish area is a couple of decathlons that are used for aerobatic training at north of $350/hr if I remember correctly. I do want some aerobatic instruction, but to just focus on learning to fly tailwheel it is a little expensive.

I would be all over a small basic taildragger to learn on especially if the price at least a little bit closer to other basic trainers. I'd rather pay a higher instructor rate for higher quality, experienced instruction in a basic rag and tube than a high plane rental rate to cover the expensive new decathlon and its insurance.

[5x5]

It seems to me that there are a number of factors at work. First off though, the analogy of standard to automatic transmission cars isn't really apt. There is nothing dynamically unstable about a car with a standard when compared to an automatic. A tailwheel aircraft has designed in instability during ground operations. As such, inattention or difficult weather conditions make the likelihood of a ground handling accident much greater. That's not intended in any way to say that if you fly a taildragger you will have a ground accident. But the chances of having one are much greater, and that can't be argued.

As for the "fun" of flying, it depends what you want to do. Most taildraggers are old designs based on airplanes that needed to deal with rough terrain back in the day when there weren't many paved runways. The tail low stance provided lots of clearance for the props. Also, they were designed for shorter takeoffs and landings as well, so the handling characteristics were such that they could perform well in such low speed situations, often described as responsiveness. That gives them a "feel" decidedly different from a nose-wheel aircraft designed for take off from a long, non-obstructed paved runway with long, clear approach and departure paths. While less responsive, they also can be described as more stable or less twitchy. Some prefer one over the other.

The fun feel of a taildragger can quickly diminish when you're flying a long x-country markedly slower than a similar nose wheel aircraft designed more for that. And if x-country is your main type of flying, the short, rough field capabilities of a tail dragger don't have much appeal.

I personally don't prefer one over the other, they both have their place. And both are fun when used for the purpose they were designed. Saying that people should fly a taildragger and "be a better/real pilot" simply because the design instability will bite them in the ass if they screw up seems a bit odd. And maybe a tad bit condescending. Much like airline travel where sometimes people clap at the end of the flight if it's a smooth, greaser landing, the passengers are celebrating one tiny aspect of the overall flight. The really important part of piloting is what comes between the takeoff and landing, not the ability to survive those two brief stages of the flight.

[TomC]

. The older birds were having frequent maintenance troubles.

That is why I chose to rebuild a Cub under the amateur built rules, I will end up with a new Cub that can be maintained by the builder / 'S.

Another suggestion is convert a Cessna 150 Aerobat to a tail wheel configuration.

I believe they were doing a lot of the work along with an AME. Apart from the mtc issues the planes were having, it was really an ideal aircraft. Simple, fairly rugged and only burning 3.5 gallons an hour or so (A65). It is the cheapest way you can get into the air, I'm sure. What does a 172 rent for these days? 180/hr wet?

[Nark]

I skipped ahead and didn't read a bunch of post's however down south everyone and their brother comments on wanting to learn tail dragges, and ask me about instruction in mine.

I don't want to teach in my bird, a Stinson 108-1. Partly because I don't want the wear and tear on the 68 year old airframe, and mostly because I only have left side brakes.

So point being, there is interest, just not accessibility.

If I wasn't handcuffed by airline flying I'd certainly find a school and free lance in there toy.

[Cat Driver]

That's not intended in any way to say that if you fly a taildragger you will have a ground accident. But the chances of having one are much greater, and that can't be argued.

Well lets look at this statement.

I flew at Central Airways for around seven years and two years of that was instructing.

During that time we had zero....read zero ...take off or landing accidents.

With proper training one could argue the chances of wrecking a tail wheel airplane are less than in a trike because you pay more attention to the handling of the machine.

No matter how you argue this topic the ability to fly a tail wheel airplane competently has to make you a better pilot.

Here is a interesting scenario.

Take two pilots with equal time....lets say 500 hours.

One has flown only trikes and the other has flown only tail wheel.

Have them trade airplanes with no check out.

How is that likely to end up?

[iflyforpie]

It seems to me that there are a number of factors at work. First off though, the analogy of standard to automatic transmission cars isn't really apt.

Sure it is... just don't pick it apart because no analogy is 100% like what it is describing... that is what makes it an analogy.

The analogy is that a standard transmission requires the coordinated use of hands and feet for it to work properly... and that the proliferation of automatic gear boxes make those skills increasingly unnecessary and hard to come by. Yet, familiarity with a standard transmission can make the use of an automatic more effective... like recognizing engine power bands and which gear it is in, and manually downshifting to keep your brakes from overheating... ...plus making things like motorcycles and commercial trucks easier to transition to if you so choose.

The really important part of piloting is what comes between the takeoff and landing, not the ability to survive those two brief stages of the flight.

No argument here... but this is where the taildragger opens up all kinds of flying that is simply unavailable on any other kind of aircraft... vintage planes, warbirds, aerobatic aircraft, and crop sprayers... you aren't going to be seeing much of any of those without a tailwheel.. and the middle of the flight is the most important part on each of those. But like you have to be able to skate to play hockey... you need to be able to land and take off as well (have fun deconstructing that one ).

[Rowdy]

My take, it's an important skill for anyone in general aviation and a fantastic way to improve yourself as a pilot and open up some interesting doors in aviation.

That being said, there are next to no 704 or 705 tail wheel machines. Even in 703 it's predominantly trikes. I'm sure someone will jump on and point at Boreks Baslers and Buffalos machines, and the few turbo otters that are left on wheels and wheel skis etc. But thats a pretty small market. The bulk of flight training in canada is geared to commercial aviation and not GA or the specialty niches of the commercial environment. Sad, but thats the way she goes.

I can tell in about 30 seconds of getting in any machine whether or not someone has some proper tail time.

[5x5]

That's not intended in any way to say that if you fly a taildragger you will have a ground accident. But the chances of having one are much greater, and that can't be argued.

No matter how you argue this topic the ability to fly a tail wheel airplane competently has to make you a better pilot.

As I said, I don't believe it makes you a better pilot, it merely makes you better at taking off and landing in an aircraft that is inherently unstable while moving on the ground. To me at least, piloting is so much more than taking off and landing. If the hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no, I don't see how flying a taildragger helps develop that ability at all.

And ifp, while you certainly can't play ice hockey without being able to skate, there aren't different styles of hockey that require different kinds of skates that are designed to make you automatically fall down if you don't use them just right. (Wasn't hard to deconstruct at all. )

[CFR]

If you REALLY want to learn to fly, fly a glider!

Most only have one wheel!

[Liquid Charlie]

I want to move to a training wheel -- I'm being haunted by trail a dragger -- ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh -- bad dreams

[Tips Up]

Must be a local thing and goes in cycles.

For a while there, any time I wanted one of the local schools 7ECA's it was mine for the asking.

Lately they are tough to book. In Winnipeg both of Harv's Citabria's and Winnipeg Aviation's Decathlon are in the air quite often.

+1 for Harv's- work on the Citabria for tailwheel time, then fly it from the backseat, then aerobactics(on a hot humid day.....), then the real fun in the Pitts. And for winter, the cub on skis. Best time ever.

[cplanedriver]

Hey Cat
Count me in for giving tail wheel training...have you left LaQuinta?
Gary

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hey Cat
Count me in for giving tail wheel training...have you left LaQuinta?
Gary

Yes we are in Tucson at the moment, however there has been a death in the family and we are leaving in the morning for Nanaimo.....it will take probably close to a week to get back.

It was really neat meeting you in La Quinta.

I was certain that there would be enough people interested in forming a Canada wide training / renting business that will be owned by individuals and offering the same quality of training.

There has to be a lot of very experienced pilots out there who will be interested in such a business with a sort of club flavor and the opportunity of owning a fun airplane that will pay its way.

Anyhow I will be leaving for home in the morning and have Verizon for my internet connection.

.

[foxy222]

Well at 22 I would fall under that (younger generation) so often talked about. If my flight club had a tail wheel option I would have jumped on the chance to do my CPL in that but unfortunately had to drive to the next province just to get a tail wheel check out. When I did my Ag course learning to fly a tail dragger was some of the most fun I have ever had flying. I wished I got the chance to do that during my private license. It gives you a whole new appreciation for rudder control that you will never get in a Cessna 150, something every new pilot can sure benefit from! Everyone I met in flight school could not care less about learning to fly tailwheel. They were much more interested on the quickest way into a twin and on to west jet. I guess it just makes me one of those "different" ones at the school who wanted nothing more than to spray Sask fields in an Air Tractor.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There has to be a lot of very experienced pilots out there who will be interested in such a business with a sort of club flavor and the opportunity of owning a fun airplane that will pay its way.

Count me in

Oh wait I actually have a valid instructor rating, I guess that disqualifies me

[Chuck Ellsworth]

ot can sure benefit from! Everyone I met in flight school could not care less about learning to fly tailwheel. They were much more interested on the quickest way into a twin and on to west jet. I guess it just makes me one of those "different" ones at the school who wanted nothing more than to spray Sask fields in an Air Tractor.

Flying an Air Tractor spraying fields and flying in the airline business are two entirely different things.

They have very little in common.

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/20 ... tailwheel/

[I_Drive_Planes]

Tailwheel training is on my short list of aviation related things to do. I'll likely never own a taildragger (being very happy with my Cherokee), but I would love to have the skills that go along with being able to fly one.

When I was doing my license a friend of mine offered me his lovely 140 to use. Unfortunately I had to turn him down because the (now defunct) flight school's only instructor couldn't fly a taildragger so I did my licence on a 150. I've always felt that I would have better hands and feet today if I had the opportunity to do my ab intio training on a taildragger.

[PilotDAR]

So it sounds like the interest is there, it's more a case of opportunity. It's nice to read that so many pilots would like to expand their skills. So here's a stepping stone toward tailwheel flying, which you can practice in nearly any GA aircraft (Okay, the Piper Tomahawk, not so much).

Use the controls to fly the plane from the moment the power is added for takeoff, to the moment you pull of the runway at the end. Get used to knowing that flying controls will have an effect (which you can make work for you) even below flying speed (this counts in the air too, by the way).

Before to apply power, apply some, if not full nose up control, and as the nosewheel lightens, use the controls to maintain an aircraft pitch attitude conducive to flight. In doing this, you will find (some to their amazement) that you don't need to "rotate" and aircraft at a "speed", it'll very happily just fly itself off when it's ready.

Similarly, after you so gracefully chirp the mains on, don't just let go and slam the nosewheel down, instead, continue to slowly increase nose up control, until you reach the stop, as the nose is allowed to gently lower to the runway - you do not need the nosewheel to be on to steer if the elevator can hold the nosewheel off, or even light.

Personally, I fly this way all the time, right up to Navajos and Caravans, and I train it relentlessly when doing type checkouts in amphibians. And it works!

And speaking of steering, use your skills, and the rudder, to track the aircraft so precisely down the centerline, that if they'd just painted it, the nosewheel would be spraying the belly with white paint! There is not excuse for using any other part of the runway in a fully serviceable plane.

I get so discouraged seeing so many planes rolling along the runway, with the elevator limply hanging down doing nothing - Those pilots are several steps further back of flying tailwheel than those who fly the plane the whole time!

So yes, learning to fly tailwheel will make you a better pilot on nosewheel types too.