Why so little interest in tailwheel flying?

[Liquid Charlie]

When it comes to flying "vintage" aircraft and this goes for anything built about the time I was born the new generation of pilot forgets that the control wheel or stick also has a left to right movement -- that is the biggest thing I notice when introducing a new candidate -- they have no clue on how to properly use the ailerons - Cat being a pig boat guru will certainly testify to this and when you show someone you can actually steer the aeroplane left and right going down the runway with aileron input they are amazed -- I'm thinking that is why any "water" pilot with good training takes to conventional gear usually fast than those who come off modern day nose wheel aircraft --

[Bede]

I thought of running a little school with a J2. I was even going to name it Grassroots Aviation (honest). (I even talked to a TC inspector who loved the idea of no brakes and a tailskid). The problem is there is very little market for it. Everyone on AvCanada thinks it's great but we're just a bunch of airplane geeks. I have run 2 flying schools in my life and talked with many others who have managed flying school. I am now of the opinion that the only way to make any money with a school is to buy an expensive, fancy, EFIS airplane. Yes it is more money, but flying has become a rich man's game. The rich guy doesn't care if he's paying $120/hr or $200/hr. He just wants a shiny reliable airplane, not one that is constantly in maintenance or has a torn headliner. If you're in a big enough city, there will be enough people to keep the plane flying 100 hrs/month.

[Aviatard]

Personally if I had the opportunity to get some tailwheel training from Cat I'd take it. Pretty sure it would be done right and I'd be a better pilot.

Unfortunately for me, I'm in Ontario.

[PilotDAR]

The rich guy doesn't care if he's paying $120/hr or $200/hr. He just wants a shiny reliable airplane

And this is a key part of the problem. The rich guy will willingly pay for the shiny plane, because there is perceived value there. However, will he pay for the truly competent, experienced instructor?

I occasionally do amphibian and flying boat type training, for pilots with float ratings. Generally, my services are sold through another organization. That organization charges my time out at $90 per hours for that training. A pilot, who required type training for the $65,000 flying boat he just bought, balked at this hourly rate, particularly when I told him that he would not be making it through in the minimum training time. I suggested an additional 10 hours would probably be needed to send him off competent. Nope, that extra $900 was just too much, so off he went with the minimum training. He seemed to think that I thought it was fun for myself to train him, and that I wanted to just do it. I explained that I own a flying boat, and can fly it wherever, and with whom ever I wanted, so flying with him in his might not be my first choice for a recreational activity.

So, taildragger candidates, particularly those who would like to fly with Cat (as would I), prepare to make the deal attractive to the instructor too - pay what they are worth - I assure you that the quality of instruction you seek is not had for $30 per hour! We are lucky that the likes of Cat DONATE their time posting wisdom here, that, we are all getting for free. Don't expect the truly qualified instructor to fly with you for next to nothing too!

[fleet16b]

Personally if I had the opportunity to get some tailwheel training from Cat I'd take it. Pretty sure it would be done right and I'd be a better pilot.

Unfortunately for me, I'm in Ontario.

Take a look here http://www.3pointaviator.com/
these guys offer really good tailwheel training and rental at reasonable rates
Great guys with a professional yet very grass roots set up

[jump154]

The advantage I see using the smaller, older airframes are once qualified if a rental opportuinty exists then one can recoup some of the extra $ spent on instruction -- flying a Cub at $80/hr or so is a great end-point. Helps to offset the cost of quality training (which I absolutely agree with and do/will pay for). -- Think that a bog standard 172 is now $160/hr wet around here.

Still not sure if what I enjoy most is tailwheel flying or flying with a stick! I find the control inputs more natural with a stick - with a yoke the aileron inputs during the flare are not as intuitive (actually, I have a tendancy to take out aileron as I pull back). Might just be the more responsive aircraft....

How long until winter is gone?

[CpnCrunch]

The rich guy doesn't care if he's paying $120/hr or $200/hr. He just wants a shiny reliable airplane

And this is a key part of the problem. The rich guy will willingly pay for the shiny plane, because there is perceived value there. However, will he pay for the truly competent, experienced instructor?

What about the Carbon Cub? Then you get the best of both worlds - a shiny, reliable airplane, with the stick and tailwheel.

[PilotDAR]

What about the Carbon Cub?

Probably an enticing delight, I've never encountered one. However, the way I use my taildragger, I'm not sure I want it starting out as shiny, 'cause it won't be when I'm done!

[Liquid Charlie]

What still perplexes me is that clubs want 10 hours to qualify(minimum) on conventional geared aircraft from pilots that already hold a license yet pilots soloed them typically around 6 to 8 hours during initial training -- mmmmmmmmm -- what really is the significance of that --

[Adam Oke]

What still perplexes me is that clubs want 10 hours to qualify(minimum) on conventional geared aircraft from pilots that already hold a license yet pilots soloed them typically around 6 to 8 hours during initial training -- mmmmmmmmm -- what really is the significance of that --

I can only assume this is an insurance thing, as I have seen this at both clubs and FTU's ... any owners care to chime in? There should be no minimum, but instead fly as required until competent. I spent about 4 hours with an exceptional instructor .... about half of those hours we didn't even leave the ground.

[Bede]

Adam,

I have dealt with a number of insurance companies and the claim that "the insurance requires it" is nonsense. The last school I managed had an insurance requirement for a yearly checkout on any pilot over the age of 80(!). The only other thing was a clause that the club executive had to ensure that every pilot was competent to fly the airplane. If someone had a lot of time, I'd do a 3 circuit checkout.

PilotDAR,

That's the problem. The guy has no problem paying $90/hr for an electrician, $100 for a car mechanic, etc., but balks at $90/hr for a professional pilot.

[timel]

That's the problem. The guy has no problem paying $90/hr for an electrician, $100 for a car mechanic, etc., but balks at $90/hr for a professional pilot.

It would not be if some scu&$!&$$ did not propose working for 0$ in the first place, people are so narrow minded, selfish and eager to build hours that they down rate the whole profession.
Cheap or not, people will pay if they have to, when do we start applying a damn Canada wide scale for wages?


I agree with you Bede, today tailwheel is only for aviation geeks.

[Illya Kuryakin]

If I could get a Citabria for a reasonable rate, I'd rent one! Let's say you live in a medium sized Canadian city, and you want to rent an airplane. Let's say you live in Thunder Bay.....methinks you're sewered. GA is dead in Canada.
Illya

[Cat Driver]

So, taildragger candidates, particularly those who would like to fly with Cat (as would I), prepare to make the deal attractive to the instructor too - pay what they are worth - I assure you that the quality of instruction you seek is not had for $30 per hour!

When I was doing flying training before I retired my hourly rate was 250 Euro per flight hour (About $350.00 Canadian an hour. )

Obviously I could not charge that much for basic airplane handling training, if I were to decide to do any training now I guess $100.00 per hour would be fair.

But at this point in time I have no great desire to get involved in training......but you never know...when Iflyforpie finishes the Cub I may do some.

[Illya Kuryakin]

What training Cat? Wing down into wind, keep straight with feet, scream like a girl. Repeat.
Illya

[Jasper]

If careers were reliant on romantic notion then sure, get some taildragger time. They are not so go a more practical route. If you desire a career ag flying or are planning some sport flying, again, go get some applicable training. If you are planning a career flying transport jet aircraft, concentrate of tricycle gear, multi engine, multi crew. Whatever you choose, realize you still have to fly the wing until the wing is done flying.

[HK_Wings]

I have a C180 on floats during summer, and ski's during the winter. Love flying tailwheel

[AirFrame]

And ifp, while you certainly can't play ice hockey without being able to skate, there aren't different styles of hockey that require different kinds of skates that are designed to make you automatically fall down if you don't use them just right. (Wasn't hard to deconstruct at all. )

Careful... Learning to skate can be done on figure skates or hockey skates... Figure skates require a heck of a lot more skill and precision in foot placement to get from A to B without catching a toe and ending up on your face. Especially when learning. Again, they do force you to develop foot muscles and movements that become second nature regardless of what skates you end up on later in life.

Hey, just like tailwheels...

[Cat Driver]

If careers were reliant on romantic notion then sure, get some taildragger time. They are not so go a more practical route.

The training I am describing is focused on all around airplane handling skills.......using a tail wheel airplane.


A tail wheel airplane develops good hands and feet co-ordination which is a requirement for the rest of the training.

I focus on accuracy throughout the whole envelope of flight.....for instance the ability to always touch down where you want to on the runway within inches of the center of the center line regardless of the wind strength and direction.

Also I teach the ability to judge height very accurately below fifty feet right down to the touch down.

Once close to touch down you should be able to judge the wheel height above the runway within inches...not feet.

That is what I consider practical training which will serve you well throughout your career, regardless of what you fly.

Flying large airplanes is a lot more than SOP's and CRM.

Assuming you want to be a pilot that is and not just another machine operator.

[tractor driver]

Hey,
jumping in late here as I was off the grid. Flying tail draggers! All our aircraft, except for the few in the summer that switch to floats are tail draggers. C-185, DHC-2, DHC-3T, AT802. There have been very few of us that had any previous tail wheel time before starting at this company, and we had to source out a training facility to get the intial training done before jumping into the likes of the 802. I would certainly be intersted in suggesting anyone wanting to fly with us get a hold of of you before showing up at our door. Let me know if you go ahead with the project.

g

[Cat Driver]

I would certainly be intersted in suggesting anyone wanting to fly with us get a hold of of you before showing up at our door. Let me know if you go ahead with the project.

Hi Tractor Driver, thanks for the support.

What I am trying to do is motivate enough experienced pilots, especially retired ones with a few dollars to be part of a coast to coast training program that is very structured and focuses on teaching people to be the best they can be.

The program I developed over the years was very successful and was aimed at all pilots, regardless of age or experience.

Here is a link to a post made on Pprune that obviously was one of my students somewhere in Europe, I have no idea which student it was but judging from his comments his money was well spent.
v
Here is a copy of the post he made on Pprune.



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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 02:25 #24 (permalink)
PBY

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Around the corner
Posts: 114

. was the only guy I met in my flying carrier who could properly teach landings. Before you stone me on this forum, realize, that I am not saying that he is the only guy who can teach landings properly. I only said he is the only guy I met in my 10000 hrs of flying who could do it. Thanks to him I can relieve the suffering of many post-traumatic-airline-training-department-disorders.
Airline instructor, unless he she has a previous instructing background, is just trained to recognise somebody's mistakes, but is not equipped with the tools
How to fix them. Airline instructor was not even trained to give instrument rating or a licence. Just renew it.airline instructor can only give a type rating to pilots, who are supposed to know how to fly. And now we get the co pilots with 150 hrs total (60 hrs actual flight time). Coming in. They don't even have a license to take their mother up in a Cessna on a nice Sunday afternoon. And these guys are the future instructor pool. So that is the reason we have all these "arrivals". Of course everybody makes mistakes sometime and that is normal. But to many airline guys the last 50 feet of flight is a mystery even more compounded by the educationally non-equipped training departments. So they know only firm landing as opposed to long greaser. Not too many seem to know you can still land nicely right at the touch down zone.
Who is gonna cast the first stone?

[FenderManDan]

Maybe get this one, it even has a BRS

http://tinyurl.com/qfsdgum

[rxl]

As to the harder part that is not really true.

When I learned to fly there were only tailwheel airplanes to learn on and the minimum time for a PPL was 30 hours.

Many of us got our PPL in the thirty hour minimum so it is not really that hard.

The reason I started this subject is to see if it would be worth while to start up a tailwheel training business with a Cub, one would think there has to be some interest out there.

Sign me up!

[NunavutPA-12]

Cat,

When I took my tail-wheel training I had a heck of a time finding a school that offered it.

Eventually, I found Harv's Air and trained on a Citabria. It was fun, and much more challenging than I imagined it would be.

What with all the home-builts out there, many of them tail draggers, I think there's a very real demand for tail-wheel training in a Cub, and just a little less demand for float training in a Cub.

I'd pursue this if I were you.

[Cod Father]

We fly one minute circuits left hand, right hand repeated for half hour lessons.

However they do not get to leave the ground until they can control the machine on the ground.

First they must be competent in recovery from controlled ground loops at taxi speed.

Then they must demonstrate they can repeatedly S turn down the center line with the tail in the air, back and forth down the runway.

Then they can go flying.

Your curriculum sounds very challenging. My training units are too insurance shy to try something like this!

Namao Flying Club at CZVL just bought a second 7ECA for aerobatic training.

I learned tail wheel at Namao on 7ECA, and it was a 10 hour dual course before solo. Did the ACGP Tow Pilot conversion which was also a 10 hour course on 8GCBC. I know for a fact my flying abilities is way better for having done this training.

I was bored flying the C-172 and C-150/152. Moving up to the 7ECA and 8GCBC restored a lot of fun to flying and some increased vigillance. I cringe a little everytime I step into a C-172 now. Tail wheel is so enjoyable. The aircraft is more responsive to the inputs.

One of the best tail wheel flights was getting to fly in a Harvard. Never hard to learn about S turns until then. Again, something new. It was wonderful.

I only fly for fun. But if I were to fly commercially, I'm certain it would be in Ag.