Air Canada Pool

[hithere]

Why does ACPA even care if there is a reservation system in place? These Jazz pilots will all be behind you in seniority. As well, a reservation system is not unprecedented... It existed under LOU 18 whereby Jazz(or Air Nova/Ontario/BC/Alliance) pilots who successfully interviewed would have their number at AC frozen until such time as Jazz could release them without compromising their daily ops. I personally know a guy who had his number frozen for two years. When Jazz finally released him to AC, he parachuted in above anyone who had joined AC since he was frozen. A frozen number system also existed at Canadian/Canadian Regional

[flashheart]

u

[rxl]

Whatever interpretation you have of how this thing is being done, if the Jazz TA, PMA and revised CPA help to provide for a healthy, growing Air Canada and a more competitive Jazz, then it should be seen as a good thing for everyone.

[rudder]

ACPA used the AC request for a reservation mechanism to get something in return for all of its members. Good for ACPA.

But ACPA is also about to add 500 Jazz pilots as members over the next 5 years. Time for the pilot groups at large to stop with the petty bickering and regurgitating the past.

2015 is the fresh start. Start treating it that way.

[Mône]

+1

[dukepoint]

ACPA used the AC request for a reservation mechanism to get something in return for all of its members. Good for ACPA.

But ACPA is also about to add 500 Jazz pilots as members over the next 5 years. Time for the pilot groups at large to stop with the petty bickering and regurgitating the past.

2015 is the fresh start. Start treating it that way.

As far as I've seen, there is no one bickering with anyone, so I don't know where you're getting this. The Membership concerns stem from protecting individuals on the property......that's it. In the event of an "Economic downturn", or "Significant event' there becomes an issue with those pilots with a reserved number not yet on the property. Who gets the lay-off notice? That's where our concerns begin and end.

As far as "getting something "out of this deal. ACPA members are the only one of the four partys involved without a clear advantage. What's wrong with ACPA attempting to wring something out of this apparently lucrative deal that would benifit the Membership?

Most of us are enthusiastic about an experienced group like Jazz joining us here......but not at any expense or disadvantage to any Member on the property.

DP.

[Old fella]

Pardon my ignorance (No doubt plenty of it in relation to airline operations) but does this new agreement mean for the most part Air Canada pilot recruitment will be from the Jazz pilot ranks. If so, what is wrong with that? I mean isn’t Air Canada getting a very good highly trained pilot from Jazz and those pilots who wish to fly for Air Canada would do best to join Jazz and wait their turn. Do potential AC pilots coming from Jazz take their seniority and current salary with them or do they have to go on initial AC wages and seniority starts when you are a fully paid member on the Air Canada property. In my working experience (regulator/service and corporate) anybody leaving company A for company B doesn’t get near any top end salaries on initial hire.

[hithere]

The Jazz pilots go to the bottom of the AC list(so they do not bring any seniority with them). What they do get is :1. a guaranteed interview(not necessarily a guaranteed job) and 2. if successful, their salary topped up for the first four years to match whatever they were making when they left Jazz. After four years the top up ends but by that time formula pay would kick in so presumably their 5th year formula pay would be similar, if not more, than their previous top up pay. AC has also committed to hiring 80% of all new hires from Jazz, until they have taken in 495 Jazz new hires, at which time they will stop the top up pay program and start including all the Express pilots(Jazz/SKR/Georgian/EVAS) in the 80%.

[AllClutch]

not quite.
There is no cap at 495, 495 is the minimum number if the minimum number of pilots (625) subscribed.
Because we had more than 625 sign up the 495 number will be higher.
The current flow through agreement will run until either everyone on 'The List' is over there or PFOd
Also it should be noted that Jazz pilots will not enjoy the same interview and hiring process that an OTS canidate will.

[arcadia]

.

[AllClutch]

It will primarily focus on their time at Jazz and included record sharing between Jazz flight ops and AC recruitment.
As well they will not take the Cog test.

[loopa]

Can anyone shed any light as to why a Jazz pilot who say interviewed last year had to do the full on interview, medical, cog, psych evals, and a present pilot at Jazz gets to bypass all the surrounding components to the interview that often times have PFO'd candidates in the past?

[AllClutch]

Because this deal wasnt in place last year.

[loopa]

Because this deal wasnt in place last year.

I should of asked my question better. Irrespective of this deal being in place, why is it that the normal hiring practices are thrown out the window for Jazz pilot's? I'm genuinely interested why a company that stood by their "flowers and clowns" questions for so long, and probably PFO'd Jazz candidates in the past over it, is now ok with hiring from the same pool of qualified people without doing the additional screening ... Shouldn't the other 20% also be given a fair shot in the same realm of interview practices? Just sayin...

[AllClutch]

Air Canada can hire who ever they want in whatever manner they deem appropriate.
They can change the rule whenever they see fit to.
They see a long serving regional pilot as bringing more to the table in the financial and experience sense so they will forgo some of the less forgiving aspects of their screening process.

[arcadia]

.

[flashheart]

allclutch,

Why even hire 20% when Jazz pilots bring so much more?

Why not just fill all future classes with entirely Jazz candidates?

[loopa]

Air Canada can hire who ever they want in whatever manner they deem appropriate.
They can change the rule whenever they see fit to.
They see a long serving regional pilot as bringing more to the table in the financial and experience sense so they will forgo some of the less forgiving aspects of their screening process.

ding ding ding ...

Similarly then a long serving pilot in any commercial aviation sector who has as much of a relevant experience as a Jazz pilot should be given the same forgo since you're really comparing apples to apples here AllClutch... you know, the Canadian North's, Canjet's, Sunwing's, North Cariboo's, Sunwest's, Kelowna Flight Craft's, CMA's, Pasco's... the list goes on. All companies that are full of very capable people, who had to pass difficult interviews, many of them medicals, and a PPC. Very much like any Jazz pilot. Oh, and their SOP's are good and requires the same level of credibility as is required of a Jazz pilot in the flight deck.

It's very fun to see! When the discussion point is about dollars and cents, it doesn't matter to AC if you're going to be a problem child or not. Not that I'm calling Jazz pilot's a problem, but when you look at it objectively, the crack is much wider now for undesirable attitudes and cognitive abilities slipping through. While I do believe Jazz pilot's deserve a break, I don't think the entitlement to a "break" in the interview process is deserved.

No body is entitled to anything, but I am very much empathetic towards the poolies that have been through the "tougher interview process" and are now getting the shaft.

Dollars and cents ladies and gentlemen. That's why our industry is unfair.

Thanks for your insight Allclutch.

allclutch,

Why even hire 20% when Jazz pilots bring so much more?

Why not just fill all future classes with entirely Jazz candidates?

Very good point.

[AllClutch]

I am not.
I dont see what my qualifications have to do with this conversation either, I will say that my qualifications would make me a more than competitive OTS candidate as would 95% of Jazz pilots.
All I am saying to say is that AC can move the goal posts as much as they would like. Do you disagree? Should Air Canadas hiring process be federally legislated?

Also it was pitched to the pilot group from our VP labour relations that the hiring could included much more than 80% Jazz. At least in the intial few years to accellerate ACs cost saving. I guess we will have to see what shakes out. I think all questions will be answered in short order.

[AllClutch]

Loopa, I think you should address your concerns to whoever taught you that life is fair.
It seems like they have more to answer for than I do.

No one ever said this wasnt about money, if they did they lied.

[loopa]

I am not.
I dont see what my qualifications have to do with this conversation either, I will say that my qualifications would make me a more than competitive OTS candidate as would 95% of Jazz pilots.
All I am saying to say is that AC can move the goal posts as much as they would like. Do you disagree? Should Air Canadas hiring process be federally legislated?

Also it was pitched to the pilot group from our VP labour relations that the hiring could included much more than 80% Jazz. At least in the intial few years to excellerate ACs cost saving. I guess we will have to see what shakes out. I think all questions will be answered in short order.

I don't think anyone is concerned about your personal qualifications. I just think that you hit the nail on the head when you said AC can move the goal posts as needed, since it's about money now.

I also think that if ac is forgoing their hiring procedures for 80%, they should for the remainder of applicants as well. There's in my mind, nothing extra a Dash 8 driver from Jazz can bring that a 737 driver from 5T can't, or a Dash 8 Driver from NCA can't, etc, etc... The only point of concern obviously being the behavioural side which should be identified in the interview anyway.

I feel for the poolies.

[JoeyBarton]

All Clutch, I am not questionning what you're saying on here. But I would like to understand how AC is going to save money by hiring a Jazz guy. He still has to go through the same initial training. So saving through a cheaper CPA yes, but other than that I don't see any cost saving for AC.

Am I missing something?

[AllClutch]

They are saving on the CPA cost. Which is huge. But that is all the savings that I see from where I'm sitting as well.
Ive heard it rumored that they will be putting the cog test out to pasture for the OTS as well if it makes feel any better loopa.
Once again, I agree that this probably doesnt fit your strict defination of fair lots of really good pilots will probably not acheive their career goals because of this. Lots of these pilots planned their lives around getting to AC since they were children and tailored their careers to get to that point. It suck for them. But do you agree that the MBAs at AC and Jazz that make this decision probably dont give a shit? They dont even care tjat much about the pilots that currently work for them. Why should they care about the guy at NCA. They are not the fair police.

[rudder]

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.

AC has now publicly stated that it will save $550M over the original term of the CPA. A significant portion of that saving comes from the PMA piece and the migration of at least 495 current Jazz pilots to AC payroll, or to severance.

So, AC is master of its own financial fate as it applies to the $550 in potential savings. I do not believe that AC will be leaving any potential savings on the table. Therefore, take the agreement on its face - 80% of the new hires at AC for the foreseeable future will come from the Jazz ranks. That still leaves lots of spots for non-Jazz pilots when you consider that the forecast AC hiring will be in the hundreds between 2015-2021 and well over 1000 by 2024.

[loopa]

They are saving on the CPA cost. Which is huge. But that is all the savings that I see from where I'm sitting as well.
Ive heard it rumored that they will be putting the cog test out to pasture for the OTS as well if it makes feel any better loopa.
Once again, I agree that this probably doesnt fit your strict defination of fair lots of really good pilots will probably not acheive their career goals because of this. Lots of these pilots planned their lives around getting to AC since they were children and tailored their careers to get to that point. It suck for them. But do you agree that the MBAs at AC and Jazz that make this decision probably dont give a shit? They dont even care tjat much about the pilots that currently work for them. Why should they care about the guy at NCA. They are not the fair police.

You're absolutely right.

The psych/cog eval has no bearing on how I feel to be honest. I just feel for the people that are in the process of signing their cards on AC home land and are really getting screwed.

I wonder how attractive aviation looks to the outside now... Will we have as many people come in to this sector knowing what they have to go through to get to the dream jobs? It used to be that you spent 1-2 years outside of your first job as a 250 hour pilot and you were employed by AC back in 1970's ... Now we are looking at a very long wait time. While no body is entitled to anything, a new comer to this industry is almost better off going into something different... ATC... Dispatching... Etc, the career incentives are quite a bit more attractive in those industries for someone just starting out not having completed their solo's yet.

For people that are able to hold a spot at the regionals today, I'd say they are still in an OK spot today to "make it." It's the ones coming behind us that will really see the hit me thinks.

Thoughts?