Dangerous practice coming from Europe

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I do not know how many are aware on how much the practice of having pilot applicants pay for their own type ratings is prevalent in Europe. The list of European airlines that require that any applicant, whether experienced or not, Captain or First Officer, pay for his type rating, either with the airline's training department or through a third party provider, is amazing.
Airlines such as RyanAir and EasyJet do this. Many other do as well. Many do much worse. And the applicants are not lacking, 200 hour CPL holders with wads of dollars in their outstretched hands, hoping to become airline pilots overnight.

Then there are airlines which think that new first officers. sometimes called Second Officer (although there is no First Officer on board) can be paid a miserable salary for a long period of time, although there are working already checked out and working as First Officers on revenue flights.

This has brought about a situation where experienced pilots from Regional, although experienced, will not quit their regional jobs for joining such companies who prefer hiring 200 hours CPLs willing to pay outrageous amounts for their TR and then accept to fly for an extended period of time for very little salary, when they are paid at all. So regional pilots are better off staying put than joining such low cost companies.

We've had Sunwing come here in Canada and raise the specter of requiring Type Ratings of their Seasonal applicants. This was done as an excuse to hire Type Rated Foreigners instead of Canadians but what to prevent them from copying the current European Model and importing it here? You all know that once one company successfully implements this practice, the plague will spread.

We need to take steps to prevent this from ever happening in Canada. Sunwiing's Pilot Union has to be at the forefront of this effort.

This is the present Canadian Regulation.

401.30 (1) Subject to subsection (3), the holder of a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane may, by day or night,
(c) while engaged in providing a commercial air service by means of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings, act as
(i) pilot-in-command of the aeroplane, if the minimum flight crew document for the aeroplane specifies a minimum flight crew of one pilot, or
(ii) co-pilot of the aeroplane;

No ATPL is required to be the [Edit out : "captain or"] second-in-command of an aircraft operated under Part 705 in Canada. A Canadian 705 operator could imitate the Europeans begin to take "cadets", hire them at 200 with a CPL, sell them a type rating and a line check for 150K and make them sign a 7 year contract like Easyjet does now...... It seems there would be hundreds of applicants.........

In the USA now a Second in Command of an airliner needs an ATPL.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-07 ... -16849.pdf

In Canada, he [ Edit out : "and the captain"] only needs a CPL.

The writing is on the wall........

Comments ? Suggestions ? Ideas ?

[aerosexual]

No ATPL is required to be the captain or second in command of an aircraft operated under Part 705 in Canada. A Canadian 705 operator could imitate the Europeans begin to take "cadets", hire them at 200 with a CPL, sell them a type rating and a line check for 150K and make them sign a 7 year contrat like Easyjet does now...... It seems there would be hundreds of applicants.........

In the USA now a Second in Command of an airliner needs an ATPL.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-07 ... -16849.pdf

In Canada, he and the captain only need a CPL.

The writing is on the wall........

Comments ? Suggestions ? Ideas ?

Only a CPL required to be a captain in Canada for Sunwing? Really Gilles? What does your rant really have to do with Sunwing anyways? The last Air Transat job posting that I saw had the following as one of the requirements:

-Hold a valid qualification on B737, A310 or A330

Why didn't you mention Air Transat in your rant, and their pilot union with respect to requiring type ratings, and how the writing is in the wall?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Only a CPL required to be a captain in Canada for Sunwing? Really Gilles? What does your rant really have to do with Sunwing anyways? The last Air Transat job posting that I saw had the following as one of the requirements:

-Hold a valid qualification on B737, A310 or A330

Why didn't you mention Air Transat in your rant, and their pilot union with respect to requiring type ratings, and how the writing is in the wall?

Perhaps you should :

1) Put your glasses on before reading Avcanada
2) Take a deep breath before reading my posts.
2b) Take another deep breath before replying to any of my posts.
3) The CARs (those are the Aviation Regulations in Canada) only require a CPL to fly as [Edit]SIC in 705 Operations. I did not mention Sunwing. But most CARs (not all as we have seen) apply to Sunwing as well.
4) Air Transat has never turned down a Canadian pilot in favor of a Foreign one for lack of a Type Rating. Sunwing has been doing it every year for several years.

[CanadianEh]

Pay to fly is another catalyst of the race to the bottom for this profession. I feel bad for all the pilots working hard to gain valuable experience and making sacrifices while others are buying their way into the cockpit.

[aerosexual]

Only a CPL required to be a captain in Canada for Sunwing? Really Gilles? What does your rant really have to do with Sunwing anyways? The last Air Transat job posting that I saw had the following as one of the requirements:

-Hold a valid qualification on B737, A310 or A330

Why didn't you mention Air Transat in your rant, and their pilot union with respect to requiring type ratings, and how the writing is in the wall?

Perhaps you should :

1) Put your glasses on before reading Avcanada
2) Take a deep breath before reading my posts.
2b) Take another deep breath before replying to any of my posts.
3) The CARs (those are the Aviation Regulations in Canada) only require a CPL to fly as Captain in 705 Operations. I did not mention Sunwing. But most CARs (not all as we have seen) apply to Sunwing as well.
4) Air Transat has never turned down a Canadian pilot in favor of a Foreign one for lack of a Type Rating. Sunwing has been doing it every year for several years.

Gilles, in your original post, you had the following quote -

"We've had Sunwing come here in Canada and raise the specter of requiring Type Ratings of their Seasonal applicants. This was done as an excuse to hire Type Rated Foreigners instead of Canadians but what to prevent them from copying the current European Model and importing it here? You all know that once one company successfully implements this practice, the plague will spread.

We need to take steps to prevent this from ever happening in Canada. Sunwiing's Pilot Union has to be at the forefront of this effort. "

In my response, I mentioned that Air Transat had a requirement for type rated pilots in their latest ad. I questioned why you had a little tirade against Sunwing with respect to this and their pilot union, yet no mention of Air Transat?

And really, are we going to argue about whether an ATPL is required to be an airline captain in Canada or not? I expect better from you Gilles.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

My original post was not changed, that quote is still there.
In Europe they went from requiring training bonds to requiring Type Ratings. Now the Type Rating is standard requirement for Low Costs in Europe and its paid by the applicant, cash up front.

Today those same low costs hire 200 hours CPL pilots, have them get into debt by buying type ratings at inflated costs, and keep the First Officer, now called a Second Officer, in a form of low pay bondage (when it is not the pilots himself who has to pay the airline to occupy the First Officer's seat) over the course of several years.

All Air Transat and other airlines have done is hope that some pilots who were already type rated would apply. Most of the pilots AT has hired recently had no type rating and AT provided them with one at AT's expense like its always been.

Sunwing, on the other hand, for the past six or so years, has been turning away Canadian applicants for lack of type rating and has been hiring type rated seasonal foreign pilots instead. This door has now been closed by ESDC and I am afraid that the next step they will take is to tell Canadian applicants that they will be hired if they pay Sunwing $40, $50 or $60 thousand dollars, payable up front. That combined with hiring low time guys who might find paying $60K to Sunwing for a guaranteed job if all they had in their sights is a Flight Instructors job at the local flight school.

In the USA, to prevent such doomsday scenarios and other problems they encountered, the FARs require that Captains and Second In Command of Part 121 Operators, which we call Part 705 in Canada, both be required to have an ATP licence.

Canada does not have such a rule. The CARs only require an ATPL from the chief pilot, check pilots and captains.

If you have any intelligence whatsoever, you will see the light.......

[single_swine_herder]

Giles .... what am I missing here?

CAR 401.30 says with a CPL, you can only be PIC of a single pilot certified aircraft, or as co-pilot of a two-crew aircraft.

The ATPL is required for a person to be PIC of two pilot certified types, or as co-pilot.... as per CAR 401.34

[monkey]

Personal attacks not allowed.
Bandaid

[aerosexual]

Gilles, in this thread you bring up a very valid issue (as you often do), but you lose your credibility by needlessly dragging Sunwing (your employer's direct competitor) through the mud.

I and my family travel every year on Air Transat. I also recommend Air Transat, especially across the Atlantic to friends and family regularly. It is a safe, reliable and punctual operation, and the service is good for a charter airline, and even exceptional in Club Class. If there are any captains at Air Transat who do not possess an ATPL, please let me know, so that I and my family and friends can avoid Air Transat in the future.

"Sunwing, on the other hand, for the past six or so years, has been turning away Canadian applicants and hiring type rated seasonal foreign pilots instead. This door has now been closed by ESDC and I am afraid that the next step they will take is to tell Canadian applicants that they will be hired if they pay Sunwing $40, 50 or $60 thousand dollars, payable up front. That combined with hiring low time guys."

So you are afraid Sunwing will start requiring that Canadian pilots pay up front for their type ratings, and hence their jobs. Why aren't you afraid that Air Transat will do the same? It was Air Transat's recent pilot job ad where a type rating was listed as a requirement. We both know that neither Sunwing nor Air Transat actually requires that, but of course they will show preference for a pilot with the listed requirements who also have a type rating on the aircraft they are hiring for. Basically, neither Sunwing nor Air Transat are any different in this respect.

The difference between hiring at Air Transat and Sunwing in recent years, is that Transat Vacations let Canjet do the dirty work by bringing in foreign pilots to Canada without having a reciprocal agreement. This practice was challenged by competitors, including Sunwing, but the government ruled in favour of the practice by Canjet. The rest unfortunately is history.

Sunwing has also hired a large number of Canadian pilots in the last few years, both on seasonal winter contracts as well as permanent positions. Most, with the exception of a few Canjet or other pilots, did not have type ratings.

I eagerly await your response regarding Air Transat captains without ATPL's.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Giles .... what am I missing here?

CAR 401.30 says with a CPL, you can only be PIC of a single pilot certified aircraft, or as co-pilot of a two-crew aircraft.

The ATPL is required for a person to be PIC of two pilot certified types, or as co-pilot.... as per CAR 401.34

You are 1000% correct. Although I looked it up, read it, copied it and posted it here on this thread, I missed it about the PIC. But I was not looking for the Regs as they pertain to PICs but SIC.

This thread was about what the Europeans are doing with hiring low time SIC with 200 hour CPLs, having them pay out of their pockets for Type ratings, and my fear that nothing stands in the way of Canadian airlines from attempting to import this practice to this country.

[aerosexual]

Gilles, your thread is misleading. You mention Ryanair and Easyjet, among other airlines have this hiring practice in Europe. Both of these airlines, and European airlines in general have enviable safety records. There is also no indication that the "Dangerous practice coming from Europe" of requiring paying for type-ratings up front is anywhere near happening at the 705 level, especially at Sunwing. Yes, there are historical exceptions, such as Voyageur and Trans-Capital.

We must and will do all we can as pilots to ensure this doesn't end up happening in Canada. What we shouldn't do is accuse competing airlines of unsubstantiated unsafe practices without just cause. That is unprofessional and immoral.

[tincanflyer]

Gilles, in this thread you bring up a very valid issue (as you often do), but you lose your credibility by needlessly dragging Sunwing (your employer's direct competitor) through the mud.

I and my family travel every year on Air Transat. I also recommend Air Transat, especially across the Atlantic to friends and family regularly. It is a safe, reliable and punctual operation, and the service is good for a charter airline, and even exceptional in Club Class. If there are any captains at Air Transat who do not possess an ATPL, please let me know, so that I and my family and friends can avoid Air Transat in the future.

"Sunwing, on the other hand, for the past six or so years, has been turning away Canadian applicants and hiring type rated seasonal foreign pilots instead. This door has now been closed by ESDC and I am afraid that the next step they will take is to tell Canadian applicants that they will be hired if they pay Sunwing $40, 50 or $60 thousand dollars, payable up front. That combined with hiring low time guys."

So you are afraid Sunwing will start requiring that Canadian pilots pay up front for their type ratings, and hence their jobs. Why aren't you afraid that Air Transat will do the same? It was Air Transat's recent pilot job ad where a type rating was listed as a requirement. We both know that neither Sunwing nor Air Transat actually requires that, but of course they will show preference for a pilot with the listed requirements who also have a type rating on the aircraft they are hiring for. Basically, neither Sunwing nor Air Transat are any different in this respect.

The difference between hiring at Air Transat and Sunwing in recent years, is that Transat Vacations let Canjet do the dirty work by bringing in foreign pilots to Canada without having a reciprocal agreement. This practice was challenged by competitors, including Sunwing, but the government ruled in favour of the practice by Canjet. The rest unfortunately is history.

Sunwing has also hired a large number of Canadian pilots in the last few years, both on seasonal winter contracts as well as permanent positions. Most, with the exception of a few Canjet or other pilots, did not have type ratings.

I eagerly await your response regarding Air Transat captains without ATPL's.

....good point on always dragging Sunwing in......it's so old......and funny how he doesn't answer your question. .....typical.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

What we shouldn't do is accuse competing airlines of unsubstantiated unsafe practices without just cause. That is unprofessional and immoral.

You are once again reading things I never wrote, just because I am the author of the thread. Follow my advice and take a deep breath before you read my posts.

The danger I am referring to is to THE PILOTS' PROFESSION. I only mentioned Sunwing because their past actions with regards to pilots hiring makes me suspect they will find the European model attractive. I say this in light of what Sunwing wrote on their LMOs applications where they specifically mentioned the European model as an argument for requiring Type Ratings from applicants.....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/65pk8wq6ykvm8 ... n.jpg?dl=0

Anyway I'm glad to see that you are on board with me against this possible threat.

Sunwing has been spending a lot of energy and efforts to employ foreign seasonal pilots and not have to employ, train and retain Canadian pilots : Reciprocity, LMOs and Wet-Leases.
Reciprocity is no longer possible, LMO'S (now called LMIA ) will no longer be issued just for lack of a Type Rating by a Canadian and Wet-Leases have been limited to 20% of the fleet. Based on my past experience, I do not expect Sunwing to just roll-over and not only retain all current Canadian seasonal pilots at the end of this season but to also hire and train an extra 120 (or more if expansion is planned) Canadian pilots for next winter. That would be too straight forward and normal. And ethical.

Just to prevent any Canadian company from trying to import the new European model into Canada, I would like to see that possibility closed before someone tries it.

There are Pilots Collective Agreements that state that a pilot cannot be charged for training, but certain airlines in Europe have found a way to circumnavigate that obstacle by not charging the pilots directly for their training, but by hiring pilots only from a particular training outfit that provided type ratings for a fee. Thus the only way into the airline was through that outfit and the airline did not charge pilots for training but ended up only hiring pilots that had paid cash up front for their Type Ratings.

[timel]

P2f is forbidden in Italy and France from what I heard.
It would be smart to do the same in Canada as a preventive mesure.

By simply maintaining your membership, we can go to Ottawa or to industry panels and speak with authority on behalf of the pilots that support our efforts

I am quoting the last email I received from CoP, it could be one of their short term target, get a law against p2f in Canada.

ALPA campaigned for new ATP requirements in the states. Today in Canada you only need 250 hours and an IATRA to fly a CRJ on the right seat.


So how do we define p2f? Is it paying a type rating in order the get a job?

[AuxBatOn]

Just like a broken record...

If only, Gilles, you could keep your ideas to a single thread...

[aerosexual]

I only mentioned Sunwing because their past actions with regards to pilots hiring makes me suspect they will find the European model attractive. I say this in light of what Sunwing wrote on their LMOs applications where they specifically mentioned the European model as an argument for requiring Type Ratings from applicants.....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/65pk8wq6ykvm8 ... n.jpg?dl=0

Anyway I'm glad to see that you are on board with me against this possible threat.

Sunwing has been spending a lot of energy and efforts to employ foreign seasonal pilots and not have to employ, train and retain Canadian pilots : Reciprocity, LMOs and Wet-Leases.
Reciprocity is no longer possible, LMO'S (now called LMIA ) will no longer be issued just for lack of a Type Rating by a Canadian and Wet-Leases have been limited to 20% of the fleet. Based on my past experience, I do not expect Sunwing to just roll-over and not only retain all current Canadian seasonal pilots at the end of this season but to also hire and train an extra 120 (or more if expansion is planned) Canadian pilots for next winter. That would be too straight forward and normal. And ethical.

You're right, I apologize. As you said earlier in the thread, if I have intelligence, I will see the light. This is definitely a Sunwing threat, as they will be the ones bringing such a scheme to Canada. Never mind that in the last two and a half years, they've hired approximately 100 Canadian seasonal pilots, on quite lucrative terms and conditions, with no training bond. Up until last season, all of these seasonal Canadian pilots have been offered permanent positions with Sunwing, and the current crop of them are very likely to be offered permanent positions in the coming weeks. I expect there will be additional hiring off the street as well, once the summer numbers are finalized. Captain upgrades have been going at an unprecedented pace too, all of which have ATPL's.

I certainly wouldn't worry about Air Transat bringing such a scheme to Canada, despite their last job posting for pilots listing as a requirement type ratings on the A310, A330, or B737.

I certainly wouldn't worry about Canjet bringing such a scheme to Canada, despite the fact they were the first airline to my knowledge in recent history to bring in foreign pilots without having a reciprocal agreement in place.

I certainly wouldn't worry about Air Canada bringing such a scheme to Canada, despite their history damaging the pilot market in Canada by putting the regional carriers against each other, forcing them to drop pilot remuneration, by starting Zip, Tango, rouge, etc, and colluding with the federal government to ensure their work force is unable to strike.

And goody two-shoes Westjet would never adopt such a scheme in Canada, despite their shameful pay and benefits at upstart Encore.

I could go on ...

Now, I'm not bashing all of the above airlines. Instead I am highlighting that you have no reason to single out Sunwing in this or the majority of your rants. All airlines have a history of pushing boundaries in order to maximize profits. As pilots, we must stick together and work against these threats by ALL airlines, and not just try to bash our direct competitors for unfounded and unsubstantiated nonsense.

[TG]

Just like a broken record...

If only, Gilles, you could keep your ideas to a single thread...

Gilles is trying, but it's not easy when all the "pro Sunwing" (whatever this company ethical's practice is) pitches in. They are just banguing on the messenger and completely missing the warning given.

That pay for type rating is around the corner and that pay to fly scheme will follow in the vaccum if nothing is done.

[aerosexual]

Just like a broken record...

If only, Gilles, you could keep your ideas to a single thread...

Gilles is trying, but it's not easy when all the "pro Sunwing" (whatever this company ethical's practice is) pitches in. They are just banguing on the messenger and completely missing the warning given.

That pay for type rating is around the corner and that pay to fly scheme will follow in the vaccum if nothing is done.

You're missing the point TG. The "warning" that Gilles so intelligently sees that the rest of us seemingly don't is really a misguided attack on his employer's main competitor (Sunwing), which discredits his argument completely. Suggesting that Sunwing (conveniently his employer's main competitor) is on the verge of such a practice is unprofessional, immoral and unproductive.

[Jim la Jungle]

but certain airlines in Europe have found a way to circumnavigate that obstacle by not charging the pilots directly for their training, but by hiring pilots only from a particular training outfit that provided type ratings for a fee.

At least TC "forbids" to buy a 705 type rating or recurrent in a training organisation in Canada. You have to be employed by a company. Unfortunately I don't have a reference to back that up. In any case, I'm sure there's a way circumvent that if push comes to shove.

[Old fella]

but certain airlines in Europe have found a way to circumnavigate that obstacle by not charging the pilots directly for their training, but by hiring pilots only from a particular training outfit that provided type ratings for a fee.

At least TC "forbids" to buy a 705 type rating or recurrent in a training organisation in Canada. You have to be employed by a company. Unfortunately I don't have a reference to back that up. In any case, I'm sure there's a way circumvent that if push comes to shove.

Tell me please all you airline types that any company( the B737 A320 type) be it whatever(charter, sunny destinations et al) will not employ foreign pilots with just a CPL and 200hrs TT to occupy any seat up front flying us Canadians around to where ever.

[digits_]

Devil's advocate here: why is it ok to pay for a ME rating, but not for a typerating for a 737 ?

There is a huge difference in cost, but other than that it is quite similar. In both cases you are being trained to be allowed to fly on airplanes you weren't allowed to fly on before. In both cases you can legally work for more companies than you were able to work for before. And no training is company specific (in the case of typeratings in europe).

So how can a government prohibit you from paying for a 737 typerating but not from paying for a multi rating ?

Just to be clear, it is of course a disgusting, immoral thing to ask of your pilots.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Tell me please all you airline types that any company( the B737 A320 type) be it whatever(charter, sunny destinations et al) will not employ foreign pilots with just a CPL and 200hrs TT to occupy any seat up front flying us Canadians around to where ever.

In Europe, its common for the SIC in 737 or 320s to be low time CPLs. I honestly do not know if the companies that bring foreign pilots to Canada to fly 737s in this country take such pilots as TFWs or require an ATPL. Perhaps those who know will inform us........

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Devil's advocate here: why is it ok to pay for a ME rating, but not for a typerating for a 737 ?

There is a huge difference in cost, but other than that it is quite similar. In both cases you are being trained to be allowed to fly on airplanes you weren't allowed to fly on before. In both cases you can legally work for more companies than you were able to work for before. And no training is company specific (in the case of typeratings in europe).

So how can a government prohibit you from paying for a 737 typerating but not from paying for a multi rating ?

Just to be clear, it is of course a disgusting, immoral thing to ask of your pilots.

Because traditionally, everyone paid for their own licences and the Type Ratings were paid for by the company. When you are hired by Air Canada for example, you dont even know at the time of hire on which aircraft the company will post you on. What good is having paid for a 320 rating if you end up on the Emb 190 ?
If pilots begin to offer to companies to pay for their own Type ratings, then the companies will do like in Europe and expect that to be the norm. Then all companies will have to adapt to remain competitive. Then the next step will be having to pay for line training as certain companies doing Europe. Then why not, the next step ? There is a captain's position open for bid. Opening bid is $100K.

When Air Canada makes you pay to get hired on the 320, then they get rid of it 2 years later and introduce the 737 Max, how to you get to that aircraft ? To you also have to pay for that type rating as well. The decision to dump the 320 for the 737 Max was not yours, but the required training expense will be paid for by the pilots. How about when a right seat in the 777 opens up. Should you pay ?

Its a can of worms, which is best left as it is. We train ourselves to the CPL Multi IFR or ATPL and when it gets to the TR, the employer pays.

To reply to your question Digits, in the US, the FAA simply required that SIC on 121 Operations have an ATPL. It does not in itself prevent anyone from paying for an ATPL but it does prevent a 200 hour CPL from trying to jump the queue by offering to potential employers to pay for his own Type rating.

[digits_]

I agree that it should stay as it is, but how can that practically/legally be enforced ?

You could say, make it illegal to pay for a typerating. Okay, what about a rich guy who wants to fly his own bizz jet and after that happens to find a commercial job ?

To reply to your question Digits, in the US, the FAA simply required that SIC on 121 Operations have an ATPL. It does not in itself prevent anyone from paying for an ATPL but it does prevent a 200 hour CPL from trying to jump the queue by offering to potential employers to pay for his own Type rating.

This possible solution might make things better for airlines, but would make things way worse for pilots working at smaller operators. If you know the employees can't go anywhere until they have an ATPL, why bother paying anybody more than the minimum wage ? It's the upwards pilot flow that keeps operators at least a little bit motivated to pay more.


As posted by many people before: if there is a market for it, somebody will provide it.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Those are excellent points you brought up......