New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[dunkafa]

Not sure it the best topic to post on but i try.

Got a call from jazz for an interview on the 24th feb. I'm captain on bi-turbine making 75k/year, with a family. I also can get 705 time in my company in the next months (dash8), i just don't like the place i live. My question to you guys is :

- What does jazz has to offer in term of career advancement to me, on mid or long term ? As i would not stay at jazz anyway but try to find a "better" job as soon as i can.

Living on 3000$/month with a family in YYZ or YYC to fly dash8 or Q4 seems not really attractive but maybe i'm missing something.

Please feel free to share your thoughts, it'll really help me take a decision.

Cheers

[PROC_HDG]

Living on 3000$/month with a family in YYZ or YYC to fly dash8 or Q4 seems not really attractive but maybe i'm missing something.

Cheers

$3000/month? You'll be hard pressed to take that home on $34/hr. Go on the DH8 where you are, or find somewhere that isn't going to pay you encore wages for the first 3 years. Just my view.

PROC_HDG

[flyer 1492]

Go for the interview, and ask questions regarding the employment. If they offer you a sim eval, take it. Nothing to lose right? If you have any questions PM me.

Flyer

[dream chaser]

[quote="dunkafa"]Not sure it the best topic to post on but i try.

Got a call from jazz for an interview on the 24th feb. I'm captain on bi-turbine making 75k/year, with a family. I also can get 705 time in my company in the next months (dash8), i just don't like the place i live. My question to you guys is :

- What does jazz has to offer in term of career advancement to me, on mid or long term ? As i would not stay at jazz anyway but try to find a "better" job as soon as i can.

Living on 3000$/month with a family in YYZ or YYC to fly dash8 or Q4 seems not really attractive but maybe i'm missing something.

Please feel free to share your thoughts, it'll really help me take a decision.

Cheers[/quote]

dunkafa,

Since everyone seems to have a hate on for the new Jazz WAWCON, I'll try and give you a perspective from the other side of the coin. I'll list the PROS and CONS from my perspective.

PROS:
- You get to leave the place you're living right now. I'm assuming somewhere up north YTS perhaps. YYZ or YYC would be good bets. This does not mean that you HAVE to live in those places. In fact, most people based in YYZ live outside of YYZ. Go an hour in any direction and you will find more affordable housing.
- 80% of ACs hiring will be from JAZZ for those currently here. ALL ACs hiring will be from AC Express brands (the majority will still be from Jazz) once the PML is exhausted. So if you have your sights set on AC, Jazz would be the place to be, to provide the best shot at that.
- Best working conditions of any of the AC Express carriers or any other regional carriers for that matter.
- Will be fairly quick internal progression once the flow through starts.
- Best pension and benefits package of any of the regionals. Although you do pay for these perks.
- Union protection.

CONS:
- Immediate pay cut. This is the one thing I HATE about aviation. Every time you try to advance your career, you take another hit in the b@lls. Your pay without OT will be approx. $1900 - $2000 per month take home plus approx $1000 - $1200 tax free in per diems. I realize that this money is not technically pay but I challenge anyone to tell me they spend that much a month on food whilst away from home. With a little planning (carry some food with you) you could spend very little of this per diem money. This will be imperative with extra mouths to feed in the house besides your own.
- Higher living expenses living in/around YYZ or YYC than what you're used to probably.
- Could take as long as 5-6 years to exhaust the PML. The alternative is you can hold out for one of the 20% off the street jobs.

There's no doubt you will take a financial hit coming to Jazz if making 75k/year presently. We all took that hit. Jazz is now a stepping-stone company just like the rest of the US and Canadian regionals. It's a bit of a catch 22. Aviation in this country and around the world is in a BOOM. Lots of opportunities for the younger pilot generation. But because of all those opportunites, there is lots of competition within the Canadian regional market. This is driving WAWCON down. So lots of opportunities = lower WAWCON. This might end up changing if the opportunities far outweigh the pilot availability. But pilot shortage is something we've all been hearing for years. The difference between my generation and the current generation is the speed of the progression. Porter, Sunwing, Skyregional, Encore, Canjet never existed during my time. So folks are getting to decent jobs much sooner nowadays. I mean, our managers at Jazz are telling us they will have to heavily rely on the college programs to find pilots in the near future. 36k with all the benefits Jazz provides will be like winning the lottery for these young pilots.

You need to assess where you would like to end up ultimately and pick the path that will provide the best opportunity to get there. If AC is where you want to be, then Jazz is probably your best path. But it also does not preclude you from any of the other bigger carriers in this country. Westjet, Sunwing, Transat all love hiring Jazz pilots. No matter what route you take, there will likely be some short term pain. Hard decisions will have to be made but if there is one thing I have learned from this business in the last 17 years, it's this. If you do not plan on staying where you are at presently, keep moving towards your ultimate goal. Always think about the bigger picture. The sooner you make those steps up the ladder, the sooner you will achieve your ultimate goal. Never turn down opportunities that will get you closer to your goal.

One last thing to consider (although no one wants to believe this will happen). If/when the music stops, and the movement/opportunities dry up, where would you rather be? At a regional company that still leads the way in the WAWCON for pilots. Or the other guys. Just throwing that out there. Do the interview. It costs nothing.

[dunkafa]

"Dream chaser" thanks a lot for your time and that detailed answer. It helps a lot

[dream chaser]

No problem at all. Good luck with your decision.

[Double Wasp]

If I understand correctly all Aircanada is offering is 80% of the interview space to Express (not only Jazz) pilots in order of date of hire. No promise regarding the ratio of Express pilots actually in the groundschool and bottom of the list. I wouldn't call this flow, as there is no guarantee of anyone actually moving to AC.

For the guys that bashed Westjet's actual flow guarantee at least there is only one interview and a number that counts toward a mainline Captain.

Flyer I heard that only one spot in Aircanada's groundschool is reserved for Express pilots any truth to that? That taste in the back of your throat is crow.

DW

[loopa]

You're correct. However business sense would dictate them removing as many high paid Jazz pilot's as possible in those 80%. The financial burden isn't due to EVAS/SKY/GGN.

But yea you're right, WJ incentives are way better. But it seems to be a matter of opinion, there are some people that are still hard set on Jazz being an amazing gig. And to those who think that way, I respect your opinion.

[rudder]

If I understand correctly all Aircanada is offering is 80% of the interview space to Express (not only Jazz) pilots in order of date of hire. No promise regarding the ratio of Express pilots actually in the groundschool and bottom of the list. I wouldn't call this flow, as there is no guarantee of anyone actually moving to AC.

DW

You are partly wrong and partly right.

Where you are right is that the PMA guarantees each pilot on the PML an interview at AC but not a guaranteed job offer. At this point in time, only Jazz pilots may sign up on the PML.

Where you are wrong is the the PMA requires that not less than 80% of the new hire positions (and therefore seniority numbers) will be filled by Jazz pilots from the PML to a minimum of 495 job offers.

[flyer 1492]

DW,

Nice try for the bait. Rumor has it that AC needs between 35-50 pilots for the two ground schools in March. That would put the total number of Jazz pilots between 28-40. Which is better than the Encore/WJ flow. By the way how many pilots have left Encore to fill the openings at WJ?

Cheers,

Flyer

[dukepoint]

This discussion is a bit academic.

AC will do whatever it wants. Poolies will be offered a course, or not. No matter what anyone says, or how they interpret the contract language, AC will hire whomever they want. Anything said on this forum, or any letter, or "movement" by certian ACPA members will make little to no difference. There will be plenty of positions for all, and like I mentioned, either way a hundred numbers or two hundred even, will make little difference.

Good luck.

DP.

[Double Wasp]

DW,

Nice try for the bait. Rumor has it that AC needs between 35-50 pilots for the two ground schools in March. That would put the total number of Jazz pilots between 28-40. Which is better than the Encore/WJ flow. By the way how many pilots have left Encore to fill the openings at WJ?

Cheers,

Flyer

The real question is... How long will it take for a guy who joins Encore today to get a Westjet command vs a new joiner Jazz guy and a command at Air Canada. That is where lifestyle really is. With a WJ date of hire that is set at day 1 Encore vs day 1 at Jazz you get an AC interview. At Encore flow rate is less of a concern, at Jazz it is the only thing that matters.

A few people on here were saying not enough was being done with regards to movement at Encore. I would argue the total percentage of pilots that flow in each workforce will be similar at first but Encore will run away with it in the end. Encore has no deadline on flow, Jazz has a minimum total pilots so how many will move after that remains to be seen.

In this industry you make what you believe are the best choices in front of you at the time, and there is definately a fair amount of "But for the grace of God go I". Picking holes in how your competition does something easily gets thrown back at you after a simple thing like a contract negotiation. Glass houses and all that.

Best of luck to all.
DW

[teacher]

A few people on here were saying not enough was being done with regards to movement at Encore. I would argue the total percentage of pilots that flow in each workforce will be similar at first but Encore will run away with it in the end. Encore has no deadline on flow, Jazz has a minimum total pilots so how many will move after that remains to be seen.

The deadline is only for the initial PML that was required for the new TA and CPA to be signed. Going forward AFTER this list is exhausted 80% of all AC new hires will come from AC Express carriers. Of that 80%, each carrier's pilot group will be offered positions depending on their percentage of total pilots. So Jazz at this point will have a greater percentage followed by the other Express carriers.

[dukepoint]

DW,

Nice try for the bait. Rumor has it that AC needs between 35-50 pilots for the two ground schools in March. That would put the total number of Jazz pilots between 28-40. Which is better than the Encore/WJ flow. By the way how many pilots have left Encore to fill the openings at WJ?

Cheers,

Flyer

The real question is... How long will it take for a guy who joins Encore today to get a Westjet command vs a new joiner Jazz guy and a command at Air Canada. That is where lifestyle really is. With a WJ date of hire that is set at day 1 Encore vs day 1 at Jazz you get an AC interview. At Encore flow rate is less of a concern, at Jazz it is the only thing that matters.

A few people on here were saying not enough was being done with regards to movement at Encore. I would argue the total percentage of pilots that flow in each workforce will be similar at first but Encore will run away with it in the end. Encore has no deadline on flow, Jazz has a minimum total pilots so how many will move after that remains to be seen.

In this industry you make what you believe are the best choices in front of you at the time, and there is definately a fair amount of "But for the grace of God go I". Picking holes in how your competition does something easily gets thrown back at you after a simple thing like a contract negotiation. Glass houses and all that.

Best of luck to all.
DW

You're assuming that the career paths, once the candidate reaches Mainline, will be parallell. They will be anything but. If you got into flying to see the world, then AC is the only way to go. If your intent is to fly a 737 for the most part, doing flying that is mainly regional, an extension of what Encore is doing already, then Westjet is your game. At this point. "A bird in hand they say."

You cannot compare seniority based bidding with socialized bidding. They're two totally different creatures, providing two totally different lifestyles. If you just want to compare Westjet lifestyle to Rouge narrowbody lifestyle, then yes, we're talking an "apples to apples" comparison. But that's where it ends. If you refer to "lifestyle" as "more money" then that too is very debateable. I'd far rather love what I do than earn an extra $10K or so a year doing something I don't. The diversity at AC almost garantees you'll find a position/route structure you'll really like.

With over 90 Widebodys firmly projected within the next 4.5 years, and a thousand+ vacancies due in the next seven, if "the speed alone of getting to a Mainline carrier" was the only factor, then maybe Westjet. But even that is debatable.

There is certainly nothing wrong with working at Jazz in the meantime. Great aircraft, impeccable maintanace, and a great support system.

My opinion only, feel free to correct me.

DP.

For the record, I wouldn't even call Westjet a "Major" carrier, their more of a "National/LCC" who's dabbling in the Overseas market. If you look on Airlinepilotcentral.com you'll notice that all "Major" carriers have an established overseas network. No Major carrier in the world forces their pilots to "groom" their aircraft on turns.

[skkfdk]

I agree with dukepoint there. well said about what makes a " mainline " carrier.

[Krimson]

I don't think anyone starting at jazz now will be seeing AC in the next 15 years...To sign up now and put your name on the bottom of the list of all feeder carriers, your shot will only come up after every single pilot at JZA/SKY/GGN have had their shot. Anyone getting hired now is just a replacement at these airlines until the game changes again.

[dukepoint]

I don't think anyone starting at jazz now will be seeing AC in the next 15 years...To sign up now and put your name on the bottom of the list of all feeder carriers, your shot will only come up after every single pilot at JZA/SKY/GGN have had their shot. Anyone getting hired now is just a replacement at these airlines until the game changes again.

I respectfully disagree. Not all will flow for various reasons, medical, interview, too close to retirement. I think Jazz would be a great choice for someone in their 20's. It would all but garantee a position at Mainline down the road.

DP.

[volez]

Guys,


I don't understand why people debate over the ultimate best deal. There is no such thing as we are all different.
We all have different perspectives, different desires, different priorities.
Both carrieres have upsides and downsides and they all are relative, to our perception.

My advice is : define what you really want, what will make you fulfilled and what you are ready to make concessions on and then you will get your answer.
There is no right or wrong career path, there is a preferred one for you and yourself only.

[dukepoint]

Guys,


I don't understand why people debate over the ultimate best deal. There is no such thing as we are all different.
We all have different perspectives, different desires, different priorities.
Both carrieres have upsides and downsides and they all are relative, to our perception.

My advice is : define what you really want, what will make you fulfilled and what you are ready to make concessions on and then you will get your answer.
There is no right or wrong career path, there is a preferred one for you and yourself only.

It's important to be informed about those differences, because it goes far to prevent dissappointment down the road. Yes I agree the paths are different, is one better than the other??? I agree that is answered by the individual. Be aware of what that career path holds, then make the choice.

As far a which carrier offers more with respect to flying/ career path diversity, it's hands down AC. The problem with pilots is they tend to get bored, and I'm very glad I'm with a carrier that has a solution. (though less so than before...)

DP.

[yycflyguy]

There will be plenty of positions for all, and like I mentioned, either way a hundred numbers or two hundred even, will make little difference.

Good luck.

DP.

During periods of stagnation, like what we are in presently, a couple hundred numbers could be the difference between a narrow body gig or a wide body gig. The difference between a Captain spot or a FO spot. The difference between sitting on reserve or holding a block. The difference between holding Christmas vacation or vacation in November. Every number counts. Seniority is EVERYTHING at AC. It makes a huge difference.

[Krimson]

I don't think anyone starting at jazz now will be seeing AC in the next 15 years...To sign up now and put your name on the bottom of the list of all feeder carriers, your shot will only come up after every single pilot at JZA/SKY/GGN have had their shot. Anyone getting hired now is just a replacement at these airlines until the game changes again.

I respectfully disagree. Not all will flow for various reasons, medical, interview, too close to retirement. I think Jazz would be a great choice for someone in their 20's. It would all but garantee a position at Mainline down the road.

DP.

Yes it could very well be, however I see it another way. To me the risk of going to Jazz now is too high. Factoring in people who do not wish to leave, there are still over 2000 pilots who will get their shot at AC (once the list opens to all feeders) before a new hire at Jazz. 60% of Jazz pilots, 90% of SKY, 90% of GGN will try to switch over to AC. To be at the bottom, you may very well be sitting at Jazz come 2025. Where is your job security now? That 23 year old is now 33 with a family and mortgage. There may still be 600 pilots ahead of you on the list to AC and now guys are getting hired OTS with less time than what you have, that 20% chance isn't looking so bad anymore. It is personally not a place I would like to be in.

This is all speculation as I do not have a crystal ball, but to put all my eggs in one basket and count on an AC interview 15 years down the road isn't something too appealing. Just ask anyone who is now stuck at a 703/704 operator who was waiting for that AC interview which has now disappeared overnight. What's stopping AC from removing the list from the Jazz guys once all their high paid pilots are now retired or at AC? They effectively cut the cost, put everyone on the lowest paid regional scale out there, now they can continue like normal taking 100% OTS.

[rudder]

20% of 1000 = 200.

Thats how many OTS spots will be available over the next 7-10 years. Subtract the current pool of 60 and that leaves just 140 spots. Those will likely disappear to sons and daughters leaving little available for non-affiliated OTS applicants.

So, are you feeling lucky?

Yes, the rules of the game just changed. AC is no longer the company making legacy type decisions based on "this is how we have done it for years". Now, AC is the company that makes 100% of its decisions based on the bottom line. No emotion. Just business.

It is a new paradigm. And AC must also ensure that the AC Express system remains fully staffed and operational so like it or not the path to AC will pass through AC Express for most of the pilots added to AC in the next decade.

[sstaurus]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

[Krimson]

Completely agree with Rudder, OTS is not looking very good right now, but neither is Jazz. Personally I would avoid it all together and not put my future career and family down to luck of timing.

To anyone who was hoping to have a chance at an AC interview in the future, I think it is just time to change with the times and make alternate plans. It's a game of chess being played where you are the pawns.

[FlyHigh13]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

I don't believe that's how it works. I believe 80% of AC's hiring will be done by All Express carriers once PML is exhausted. The amount from each express carrier is a ratio of how many pilots they employ. Since Jazz is still the largest, they will have the largest cut of the express carriers. If the PML list is exhausted already, that means it will probably be the new hires now who will be going because everyone ahead of them already decided to go or not go.