Air Canada Pool

[dukepoint]

FWIW, like take it or leave it, but I think poolies should stay put, and just accept the rules of engagement have changed somewhat. In the next year or two, things are really going to take-off once the "old boys" decide their time has come. 50 or 100 seniority numbers either way is going to make very little difference in the big scheme when things spool up.

Of course, IMHO....DP.

[dream chaser]

[quote="Splash"][/quote]

If you are offered a position, you have 3 options. 1) Take the job. 2) Decline the job and take the FIP (top-up pay) and leave both Jazz and AC, 3) Decline the job and return to Jazz at the New Hire Payscale. Some of the guys close to retirement will be choosing option 2). And some of the 20 YOS guys who are not on the Dash Classic will select option 3). I suspect 90% of the top 100-150 names on the PML have no intention of going to AC.[/quote]

I don't mean to ask a stupid question,but why would a 20 YOS pilot decline an offer and return to Jazz to make less money?[/quote]

No stupid questions. This deal was extremely confusing to us at Jazz when it was first presented. A 20 YOS pilot declining the interview/offer and staying at Jazz (because they haven't actually left) would be moved to the "new hire payscale". The new hire payscale tops out at the same dollar value of $120.08. It just takes 20 years to get there as opposed to the "current" payscale which only takes 17 years. So no pay jeopardy for 20 YOS or more. EXCEPT if you fly the Dash 8 classic. The new hire payscale for the Dash 8 classic is capped at 8 YOS so it would be a huge paycut if you turned down an AC interview/offer and stayed at Jazz to voluntarily fly/or if forced to fly the Dash. This is what I thought would kill the 625 requirement but life according to me was wrong again. Clear as mud eh?

[biatch]

Calls going out to senior Jazz pilots on the list have begun. March 9 course. Here we go!

[tailgunner]

For the pilots waiting in the pool, keep the faith.
From what I understand, more or revised info may soon be released. There is a large and growing movement to rectify the situation. I know nothing specific to share right now, but there are large numbers of our members rallying on your behalf.
Tailgunner.
( a huge poolie supporter)

[Ah_yeah]

I echo tail gunner's comments. The rank and file have protested and there may be some good news for the poolies. As far as I know ACPA has been silent apart from individual members conveying their disappointment to management.
I am truly happy for the Jazz members that will be coming to mainline but I believe in the sanctity of a handshake. Fingers crossed some official news follows that is fair to everyone.

[Bajan Pilot]

"There is a large and growing movement to rectify the situation."

Don't you think that ship has sailed. Jazz guys have signed a TA based on the situation being what it is, people are making career/life decisions based on this and to try and change it for people who are not on any property is...to me...a 'here we go again' scenario. Being in 'the pool' does not carry any rights IMO, but then again I have no dog in this fight.

[Splash]

If you are offered a position, you have 3 options. 1) Take the job. 2) Decline the job and take the FIP (top-up pay) and leave both Jazz and AC, 3) Decline the job and return to Jazz at the New Hire Payscale. Some of the guys close to retirement will be choosing option 2). And some of the 20 YOS guys who are not on the Dash Classic will select option 3). I suspect 90% of the top 100-150 names on the PML have no intention of going to AC.

I don't mean to ask a stupid question,but why would a 20 YOS pilot decline an offer and return to Jazz to make less money?[/quote]

No stupid questions. This deal was extremely confusing to us at Jazz when it was first presented. A 20 YOS pilot declining the interview/offer and staying at Jazz (because they haven't actually left) would be moved to the "new hire payscale". The new hire payscale tops out at the same dollar value of $120.08. It just takes 20 years to get there as opposed to the "current" payscale which only takes 17 years. So no pay jeopardy for 20 YOS or more. EXCEPT if you fly the Dash 8 classic. The new hire payscale for the Dash 8 classic is capped at 8 YOS so it would be a huge paycut if you turned down an AC interview/offer and stayed at Jazz to voluntarily fly/or if forced to fly the Dash. This is what I thought would kill the 625 requirement but life according to me was wrong again. Clear as mud eh?[/quote]

Clear as mud? I'm still trying to make sense of it. The Dash 8 classic new hire 8 year pay scale cap is surprising. That would certainly explain the Rouging concept being put forward by the company. Chorus/Jazz/Classic,whatever it's called,is entering contract negotiations with it's flight attendants soon with the June contract expiry coming up and based on the company's announcement of Monday,which specifically mentioned that they expect savings after successfully giving the airports group a hair-cut in arbitration. It's hard to imagine new Classic Dash 8 flight attendants being sent to Disney World. The AME group is not too far behind,can't imagine what carrot/stick approach they will be using with them other than,agree,or we will contract out the DH3 life cycle extension program,never mind the impact of fleet downsizing.

[altiplano]

For the pilots waiting in the pool, keep the faith.
From what I understand, more or revised info may soon be released. There is a large and growing movement to rectify the situation. I know nothing specific to share right now, but there are large numbers of our members rallying on your behalf.
Tailgunner.
( a huge poolie supporter)

+1. Lots of guys pushing for OTS pool dwellers. Sounds like letters (and replies) went all the way to the top with a statement that this new policy is being clarified with the departments that be and poolies will not get completely shafted. I don't think they are going to drain the pool completely before the incoming from Jazz, but you won't get left floating indefinitely.

On a plus side latest equipment bid shows 70 odd open positions...

[eagle7044]

Let me be the first to say a huge THANK YOU to the pool supporters. I didn't realize anyone cared, and it feels good to have some people on our side fighting for us!

[rudder]

On a plus side latest equipment bid shows 70 odd open positions...

Net of 75 vacancies. Which positions will likely remain vacant after the award ... 320 FO? EMB FO? 767 RP? Is it expected that all posted LCC FO spots will be filled by active pilots?

[arcadia]

.

[biatch]

I'm certain an initial high # of deferals is expected as many of these senior pilots will seek the maximum payout and retire. I think you have to interview and be offered employment to reserve the seniority #. Current poolies will make it to AC at various times I'm sure....but going forward a MINIMUM of 80% will be from Jazz until the PML is expired. After that the FPMA will kick in whereby a minimum 80% will be from AC Express carriers and 60 % of that group will be Jazz. That's how I understood it anyways. The Jazz College program pilots should be thrilled with this more than anyone else....wish I had that available 20 years ago.

[aV1aTOr]

For the pilots waiting in the pool, keep the faith.
From what I understand, more or revised info may soon be released. There is a large and growing movement to rectify the situation. I know nothing specific to share right now, but there are large numbers of our members rallying on your behalf.
Tailgunner.
( a huge poolie supporter)

+1. Lots of guys pushing for OTS pool dwellers. Sounds like letters (and replies) went all the way to the top with a statement that this new policy is being clarified with the departments that be and poolies will not get completely shafted. I don't think they are going to drain the pool completely before the incoming from Jazz, but you won't get left floating indefinitely.

On a plus side latest equipment bid shows 70 odd open positions...

Very glad to hear this. I also agree that a hand shake is a hand shake, and though these guys are not officially on property, between gentlemen (and women), they are as good as hired. They should be treated that way. I understand the Jazz PMA is a signed legal document, but these things have ways of being circumvented. What are lawyers for after all?

[flashheart]

allclutch is going to be pissed if this happens!!

[arcadia]

.

[AllClutch]

First off Please don't 'out' people - that's why we have usernames. I have never thought or expected or wanted AC to empty the hiring pool.
I am not your enemy. Jazz pilots are not your enemy.
Secondly Air Canada can choose to throw the PML out at any time absolutely. They can choose to breach contract with their largest regional feed and they are free to deal with the ramifications of that as they see fit.
That post was in response to the question of why AC might change the hiring process for future senior jazz pilots not guys currently in the pool.
Also if violence is how you solve imaginary internet problems then obviously that psych test isn't infallible.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

As mentioned above, another email was sent to the pool today. It stated that there was false information communicated yesterday, and that poolies are not completely done for. It did however state that the Jazz flow through will continue as perviously indicated. Basically we still have a chance at getting hired, but we've been pushed down the list due to this flow through. So the news is certainly better than yesterday, although not perfect!

Again, a big thanks to the AC pilots advocating for us poolies. I honestly didn't think anyone already aboard even gave a second thought about us. Boy was I wrong.

Thanks guys.
I really appreciate the support.

[estavan]

As mentioned above, another email was sent to the pool today. It stated that there was false information communicated yesterday, and that poolies are not completely done for. It did however state that the Jazz flow through will continue as perviously indicated. Basically we still have a chance at getting hired, but we've been pushed down the list due to this flow through. So the news is certainly better than yesterday, although not perfect!

Again, a big thanks to the AC pilots advocating for us poolies. I honestly didn't think anyone already aboard even gave a second thought about us. Boy was I wrong.

Thanks guys.
I really appreciate the support.

Listen I wish you pool guys all the best, Im sure everyone at jazz wants you to have a fair chance. Don't be misguided by a bunch of nobodies on here that because 5 people wrote letters to their hr reps or chief pilots they will break this contract. What can they do... there is a legal contract signed, 23 Q's ordered for the CPA and the Jazz pilot agreement. If AC wants to break this for the attrition of some people in the pool(we all know they won't), well Im sure Jazz and Alpa would fire back. Don't forget the big dog rules, but the little bastards bite back. Just keep calm, wait your turn, it will all work out.
Dont blame Jazz, most guys there wanted ac just as bad as you did. DONT be selfish, every one has lives and mouths to feed too.
Till then, live a happy life and stop name calling and being mean. it is not nice. period

[TrailerParkBoy]

[/quote]
Very glad to hear this. I also agree that a hand shake is a hand shake, and though these guys are not officially on property, between gentlemen (and women), they are as good as hired. They should be treated that way. I understand the Jazz PMA is a signed legal document, but these things have ways of being circumvented. What are lawyers for after all?[/quote]

I'm not sure if a hand shake trumps a legal document! However, there will be shit loads of hiring at AC, so it shouldn't make a difference.

For the love of God, stop the insanity!

[Fanblade]

As mentioned above, another email was sent to the pool today. It stated that there was false information communicated yesterday, and that poolies are not completely done for. It did however state that the Jazz flow through will continue as perviously indicated. Basically we still have a chance at getting hired, but we've been pushed down the list due to this flow through. So the news is certainly better than yesterday, although not perfect!

Again, a big thanks to the AC pilots advocating for us poolies. I honestly didn't think anyone already aboard even gave a second thought about us. Boy was I wrong.

Thanks guys.
I really appreciate the support.

It sounds like ACPA negotiated a hard 20% OTS.

[Fanblade]

On a plus side latest equipment bid shows 70 odd open positions...

Net of 75 vacancies. Which positions will likely remain vacant after the award ... 320 FO? EMB FO? 767 RP? Is it expected that all posted LCC FO spots will be filled by active pilots?

The interim bid shows 1 YYZ LCC FO spot open.

-No spots in YVR open
- No spots in YWG open
- couple YUL EMJ FO
- couple of YYZ 787/767 RP

Lots of YYZ EMJ/320 FO

[altiplano]

Here's the latest...

- AC will aim to have a mix of both Jazz and off-the-street pilots for each PIT course
- All potential new hire pilots will benefit from the growth as there will be an uptick in pilot hiring overall, currently the "pool" of interviewed and accepted pilots sits at 60, these pilots will be offered employment along with the Jazz pilots on the PML in accordance with the 80/20 split
- Jazz pilots that come to AC on this PML will not have any advantage over other new hire pilots. Jazz pilots will be treated in all respects as a new hire pilot (pay, pension, pass priority, GDIP, vacation, etc)
- Jazz pilots do not have a tranche of seniority numbers reserved for them
- Jazz pilots will be assigned to a PIT course and awarded a seniority number using the lottery system based on the date that they are offered employment
- Jazz pilots will be able to delay their employment date for up to 24 months but not suffer a penalty to their seniority date
- Same deferred employment arrangement is extended to future new hire pilots who do not come from Jazz
- Any new hire pilot who defers the employment date will not accrue any service time

So the next 300 spots at AC will be 80/20 Jazz/pool pilots. That will clear out the current pool of 60. 300 guys may be a couple years, but depending how many defer, it could go really fast too as AC needs the bodies. Not perfect for guys waiting... But you are in and near the front at a time it looks like a big wave is going to hit.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

It's funny how I'm happy with this deal, even though when I started waiting 2 years ago I needed AC to hire 90 pilots for me to get hired, now I'm pumped that I only have to wait for roughly 120 pilots to be hired before I get my shot. Somehow I've moved significantly further away after waiting two years and I'm still counting myself lucky!!!

The only thing that kind of scares me is that the employment deferral system for Jazz pilots could create a cycle which could put me near the bottom of the seniority list for a long time. For example, say the top 100 Jazz pilots defer for two years, does this mean I would still have to wait for AC to hire 120 pilots, then I get hired, and then get assigned reserve on the airbus or something and as each of those 100 get hired they would move into the positions that would have gotten me off reserve?

I guess the other possibility is that if a Jazz guy defers they would replace them with a poolie, which would be good for us but I have a hard time believing that would happen... I suspect they will stick to 80/20 in each PIT course regardless of how many defer.

At first glance losing 120 seniority numbers isn't that bad, but conceivably I could lose several hundred numbers, and even worse, that would all happen while I'm sitting waiting in a job which everybody says is hell (junior reserve).

Sorry if I sound like a Debbie Downer, but I'm just trying to understand what is likely to happen.

[arcadia]

.

[estavan]

Slappy,

From what I understand, Deferring is different then accepting employment and reserving your seniority
.I think and I could be wrong but it was my understanding, that once deferred you opted to stay at JAzz and you no longer get Mainline. (I am guessing the guys with 10 yrs or less would go this route for retirement,lifestyle etc.) So they are no longer our problem. The guys who interview and accept employment but then choose to stay at JAzz for up to two years, ( Which is a smart move by a guy who at Jazz has a great sked and gets to come over to AC two years into his first four and then most likely will have a couple hundred below him and a good sked there.) These are the ones that would be our problem, as we could potentially be picked up say even March work two years and then all of a sudden have 40 guys come over and bump us down the list.

For me, I hope that the first 40 guys they interview accept employment and request to stay at JAzz for two years. Then they opt to fill the G/S with 40 poolies. ( this may be highly unlikely, but a guy can hope.) Then we at least get to get on the property, make the move and settle in. It'll suck in two years, but we now know what we are getting into so its either take it or leave it.

I am in the same boat as you, I was relieved to read the release at first, but then it started to sink in what really just happened.

It will all work out, some of the Jazz guys have no idea what kind of roller coaster ride this has been for us, and they don't care, they are all for themselves. So screw the likes of ALLCLUTCH and stay positive.

Why would a group of 1300 pilots make a massive career decision for themselves based on a handful (in comparison) of people in the pool. Of course they don't care Silly rabbit.