Air Canada Pool

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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estavan
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by estavan »

I should elaborate, I'm sure they are sympathetic but they are thinking of number 1.
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arcadia
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by arcadia »

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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dream chaser
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dream chaser »

[quote="arcadia"]Slappy,

From what I understand, Deferring is different then accepting employment and reserving your seniority
.I think and I could be wrong but it was my understanding, that once deferred you opted to stay at JAzz and you no longer get Mainline. (I am guessing the guys with 10 yrs or less would go this route for retirement,lifestyle etc.) So they are no longer our problem. The guys who interview and accept employment but then choose to stay at JAzz for up to two years, ( Which is a smart move by a guy who at Jazz has a great sked and gets to come over to AC two years into his first four and then most likely will have a couple hundred below him and a good sked there.) These are the ones that would be our problem, as we could potentially be picked up say even March work two years and then all of a sudden have 40 guys come over and bump us down the list.

For me, I hope that the first 40 guys they interview accept employment and request to stay at JAzz for two years. Then they opt to fill the G/S with 40 poolies. ( this may be highly unlikely, but a guy can hope.) Then we at least get to get on the property, make the move and settle in. It'll suck in two years, but we now know what we are getting into so its either take it or leave it.

I am in the same boat as you, I was relieved to read the release at first, but then it started to sink in what really just happened.

It will all work out, some of the Jazz guys have no idea what kind of roller coaster ride this has been for us, and they don't care, they are all for themselves. So screw the likes of ALLCLUTCH and stay positive.[/quote]

Arcardia,

There is currently a unique situation happening. Because of all the time constraints (March 9th course date using pilots from a Jazz PML that has yet to be finalized), some pilots at Jazz are being called and just asked if they could come for an interview and possibly start March 9th. They are being told they can "defer" the INTERVIEW until all the details are finalized regarding the reservation system. If one were to defer the INTERVIEW, they could interview down the road and if successful would have their hire date be slated in for March 9th. AC is just calling to see who could possibly consider starting on March 9th. Because they need to fill the class with 80% Jazz, they are having trouble finding Jazz folks who can commit on such a short time frame. But to be clear, deferring the interview with a successful job offer in the future will have those guys slotted in on March 9th for DOH.

Your point about deferring meaning you give up mainline is incorrect. Deferring an offer of employment means delaying your decision to go for up to 2 years. But DOH on the ACPA seniority list will be considered the day you received your "offer of employment".

It is true that those who take their offered position at mainline right away (whether from Jazz or the pool) will be affected by those who defer and parachute in later. One thing I did hear though was that if Jazz pilots were offered the option of a reservation system, then ALL pilots OTS would be offered this as an option as well. Not sure that would help all poolies (I'm sure some just want to get away from where they are ASAP) but it might be an option at least.
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Slappy the Squirrel
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Slappy the Squirrel »

Great, so even if I do get hired my seniority number is going to be hundreds of numbers lower than where I'm slotted into a ground school.

Alright, who's got the next piece of bad news?
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by altiplano »

dream chaser wrote: Arcardia,

There is currently a unique situation happening. Because of all the time constraints (March 9th course date using pilots from a Jazz PML that has yet to be finalized), some pilots at Jazz are being called and just asked if they could come for an interview and possibly start March 9th. They are being told they can "defer" the INTERVIEW until all the details are finalized regarding the reservation system. If one were to defer the INTERVIEW, they could interview down the road and if successful would have their hire date be slated in for March 9th. AC is just calling to see who could possibly consider starting on March 9th. Because they need to fill the class with 80% Jazz, they are having trouble finding Jazz folks who can commit on such a short time frame. But to be clear, deferring the interview with a successful job offer in the future will have those guys slotted in on March 9th for DOH.

Your point about deferring meaning you give up mainline is incorrect. Deferring an offer of employment means delaying your decision to go for up to 2 years. But DOH on the ACPA seniority list will be considered the day you received your "offer of employment".

It is true that those who take their offered position at mainline right away (whether from Jazz or the pool) will be affected by those who defer and parachute in later. One thing I did hear though was that if Jazz pilots were offered the option of a reservation system, then ALL pilots OTS would be offered this as an option as well. Not sure that would help all poolies (I'm sure some just want to get away from where they are ASAP) but it might be an option at least.

MOA with ACPA states no reserved seniority for Jazz pilots. Seniority by lottery based on date of start in employment offer. Any pilot can defer if offered a start date and get seniority number. Nothing is based on interview dates. Anything contrary to the MOA would be open to a grievance. Lots of info flowing around and a lot of guys hearing/spreading what they want to hear I think.

If it were me I'd get on the property asap OTS or Jazz.... However you think it may work or may have been told, between how ACPA/ALPA/AC/JZ/OTS etc interpret it, nothing will can argue the fact you were here if an arbitrator gets it in front of him down the line sometime... Based on past performance and the career implications of seniority, I'm sure it will get there.
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dream chaser
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dream chaser »

[quote="altiplano"][quote="dream chaser"]
Arcardia,

There is currently a unique situation happening. Because of all the time constraints (March 9th course date using pilots from a Jazz PML that has yet to be finalized), some pilots at Jazz are being called and just asked if they could come for an interview and possibly start March 9th. They are being told they can "defer" the INTERVIEW until all the details are finalized regarding the reservation system. If one were to defer the INTERVIEW, they could interview down the road and if successful would have their hire date be slated in for March 9th. AC is just calling to see who could possibly consider starting on March 9th. Because they need to fill the class with 80% Jazz, they are having trouble finding Jazz folks who can commit on such a short time frame. But to be clear, deferring the interview with a successful job offer in the future will have those guys slotted in on March 9th for DOH.

Your point about deferring meaning you give up mainline is incorrect. Deferring an offer of employment means delaying your decision to go for up to 2 years. But DOH on the ACPA seniority list will be considered the day you received your "offer of employment".

It is true that those who take their offered position at mainline right away (whether from Jazz or the pool) will be affected by those who defer and parachute in later. One thing I did hear though was that if Jazz pilots were offered the option of a reservation system, then ALL pilots OTS would be offered this as an option as well. Not sure that would help all poolies (I'm sure some just want to get away from where they are ASAP) but it might be an option at least.[/quote]


MOA with ACPA states no reserved seniority for Jazz pilots. Seniority by lottery based on date of start in employment offer. Any pilot can defer if offered a start date and get seniority number. Nothing is based on interview dates. Anything contrary to the MOA would be open to a grievance. Lots of info flowing around and a lot of guys hearing/spreading what they want to hear I think.

If it were me I'd get on the property asap OTS or Jazz.... However you think it may work or may have been told, between how ACPA/ALPA/AC/JZ/OTS etc interpret it, nothing will can argue the fact you were here if an arbitrator gets it in front of him down the line sometime... Based on past performance and the career implications of seniority, I'm sure it will get there.[/quote]

OK. So hearing it straight from the mouths of those contacted for an interview with the option of deferring this first interview opportunity is not enough proof I guess. And hearing it from our management won't do either I guess. Many guys contacted already HAVE deferred their interview already and are being told their DOH will be March 9th if successful in the future. I'm not going to argue the point as I'm not currently involved in this scenario. I'm just relaying the info I've heard directly from the horses mouth. Your choice to believe or not believe.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by altiplano »

I believe it's what you heard, as I said a lot of stuff being said, but I believe what's in writing stands. In the MOA both the union and company have laid out the conditions for getting a seniority number in this deal... and deferring an interview is not one of them. You have to be hired, given a start date and defer your start date.

If someone dropped in on top of me and it was not under the specified condition, I would grieve it and I think I'd win. That goes for not just OTS but Jazz pilots that don't defer and had colleagues drop in on top too.

As I said, be sure where you stand, get on the property, what are you waiting for?
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arcadia
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by arcadia »

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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheStig
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by TheStig »

altiplano wrote: As I said, be sure where you stand, get on the property, what are you waiting for?
Lots of conflicting information being circulated, for what its worth the I haven't seen the MOA between ACPA and AC but the ACPA email stated that seniority numbers would be assigned when employment offers were made. With that said, I hope that this is being handled properly by AC's recruitment otherwise they're going to have a mess on their hands. Because of this, I agree with altipano, do your interview ASAP and get on the list to prevent any unpleasant surprises as it's happened before. Just remember AC is going to put its needs first and the MOA was created after the TA.
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Last edited by TheStig on Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by altiplano »

This all sounds bogus to me, Would Dukepoint or another ACPA member care to re-read and post the latest MEC newsletter regarding the new JAzz CPA and PMA and clarify. If the above is true, this contradicts what the MEC newsletter stated. I don't care to argue this anymore on what I heard vs what someone else heard.

Could be a few grievances/law suits over this.
I already posted the highlights from the MEC newsletter.
altiplano wrote:Here's the latest...
- AC will aim to have a mix of both Jazz and off-the-street pilots for each PIT course
- All potential new hire pilots will benefit from the growth as there will be an uptick in pilot hiring overall, currently the "pool" of interviewed and accepted pilots sits at 60, these pilots will be offered employment along with the Jazz pilots on the PML in accordance with the 80/20 split
- Jazz pilots that come to AC on this PML will not have any advantage over other new hire pilots. Jazz pilots will be treated in all respects as a new hire pilot (pay, pension, pass priority, GDIP, vacation, etc)
- Jazz pilots do not have a tranche of seniority numbers reserved for them
- Jazz pilots will be assigned to a PIT course and awarded a seniority number using the lottery system based on the date that they are offered employment
- Jazz pilots will be able to delay their employment date for up to 24 months but not suffer a penalty to their seniority date
- Same deferred employment arrangement is extended to future new hire pilots who do not come from Jazz
- Any new hire pilot who defers the employment date will not accrue any service time
Every new hire gets the same deal re deferring. Jazz or OTS. The only change to our CA from this MOA has been to allow the 24 month LOA... It's been explicitly stated no reserved seniority numbers. You are hired first and get a start date and then you get a number and defer your start date. The only advantage a Jazz guy gets is the 80/20 split, otherwise all new hires are treated the same.

Company can hire who they want, but everyone gets treated the same.

If there is a different application after the fact by the company it is contrary the MOA and I would grieve it. If they started giving seniority based on interview date and I was in the pool, I'd be looking for the same.

Whatever happens though, nod and smile until you are here and off probation. Good luck, it's a really great gig! I can imagine the hoops and politics isn't what you want to deal with when you're so close, but keep your head up and know whatever happens there's lots of good stuff ahead and a great career to be had.
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arcadia
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by arcadia »

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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flashheart
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by flashheart »

"All potential new hire pilots will benefit from the growth as there will be an uptick in pilot hiring overall, currently the "pool" of interviewed and accepted pilots sits at 60, these pilots will be offered employment along with the Jazz pilots on the PML in accordance with the 80/20 split"

Anyone else think this crazy...

60 "accepted" pilots are to wait YEARs for a job after having their current employer notified they intend to leave? That's a long time to wait...

Do any other employers in the world do this? Generally if you get interviewed and accepted, you start in the near future...
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dukepoint
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dukepoint »

I can't comment on the "sanity" of it, only that that's how it's gonna work. It's business unfortunately. It certianly beats getting in the Jazz cue.

One thing to be thankful for though. It easily, easily could have been 100% flow, ( and should have been based on economics alone) so someone in the Ivory Tower cares about you guys.

I do have a feeling most in the pool will be seeing a course date sooner than they think. Time will tell.

DP.
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rxl
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by rxl »

arcadia wrote:
Could be a few grievances/law suits over this.
Not even hired yet and already talking grievance/lawsuit?
WTF.
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rxl
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by rxl »

flashheart wrote:"All potential new hire pilots will benefit from the growth as there will be an uptick in pilot hiring overall, currently the "pool" of interviewed and accepted pilots sits at 60, these pilots will be offered employment along with the Jazz pilots on the PML in accordance with the 80/20 split"

Anyone else think this crazy...

60 "accepted" pilots are to wait YEARs for a job after having their current employer notified they intend to leave? That's a long time to wait...

Do any other employers in the world do this? Generally if you get interviewed and accepted, you start in the near future...
Why would you resign your current job without having a bonafide offer of employment in your hand?
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Slappy the Squirrel
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Slappy the Squirrel »

rxl wrote:
Why would you resign your current job without having a bonafide offer of employment in your hand?
You're misinterpreting what was said. They never resigned their positions, but Air Canada called some of the poolies chief pilots for reference checks, and at the same time they informed them that they were going to hire those candidates, and even told them they would be gone within 6 months.

I'm sure there was no mal-intent on behalf of Air Canada, they had assumed we would all be hired within a few months. However, the FP60 thing came along. As you can imagine having someone tell your chief pilot you are as good as gone can be detrimental to your job security and career progression within that company.
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biatch
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by biatch »

Those are the risks of looking for other work, Slappy. Having spent my first 10 years at smaller operators, some can certainly be vindictive about these things although I prefer to think most are not.

I have flown with f/o's at Jazz who decided to remain at tier 3 operators instead of coming to Jazz much sooner, thinking they would get the call from AC or WJ. That call never came and they let 18 to 36 months of Jazz seniority go by. In that same time frame, some of their tier 3 f/o's had come to Jazz and then got on AC.

Jazz is a fantastic place to be and movement is about to seriously spool up. Despite what the uninformed and haters say, even this new TA is pretty good. In fact, there are even some improvements. Encore and SR do not even come close to the total package Jazz offers. I won't even get into the #'s as it's beyond the obvious. And now there is career progression to AC for a long time to come for those who choose this path.

PMA is a done deal. Reservation system is a done deal. It will not be changed or amended despite what some disgruntled members may think or say. There will be at least 495 Jazz pilots going to AC in the coming years. I would say a lot more than that as the economics dictate to both companies that this is the optimal cost solution. I know it sucks for those who wanted to see Jazz go down the toilet and be crushed into oblivion come 2020....but anyone who thought that would actually happen does not comprehend the symbiotic relationship these two companies have. Now, do you really think Jazz will be at 86 a/c come 2025? I doubt it.
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rxl
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by rxl »

Slappy the Squirrel wrote:
rxl wrote:
Why would you resign your current job without having a bonafide offer of employment in your hand?
You're misinterpreting what was said. They never resigned their positions, but Air Canada called some of the poolies chief pilots for reference checks, and at the same time they informed them that they were going to hire those candidates, and even told them they would be gone within 6 months.

I'm sure there was no mal-intent on behalf of Air Canada, they had assumed we would all be hired within a few months. However, the FP60 thing came along. As you can imagine having someone tell your chief pilot you are as good as gone can be detrimental to your job security and career progression within that company.
The call to employers from AC HR should be limited to a reference check only. That's a pretty delicate conversation and I'm sure the people at AC who make these calls are well aware of that.
Agreed that some operators could make life miserable for the AC candidate after receiving that call.
Good luck to all,
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Krimson
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Krimson »

biatch wrote:Jazz is a fantastic place to be and movement is about to seriously spool up. Despite what the uninformed and haters say, even this new TA is pretty good. In fact, there are even some improvements. Encore and SR do not even come close to the total package Jazz offers. I won't even get into the #'s as it's beyond the obvious. And now there is career progression to AC for a long time to come for those who choose this path.
Could you please explain those #'s as it is far less than obvious. This deal is only good for those currently at Jazz, and the only hiring which is about to spool up is the suckers which are going to be left holding the bags as current employees retire or shift to AC.
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Black Cat »

Pool peeps,

There a many Jazz pilots on the PML (and not) who wish you the best and hope for your expedited employment with AC. Nobody I've talked to at jazz feel entitle to the course spots, actually, many of us were planning a long and stable career at Jazz until a few weeks ago when it was made clear that a long stable career at jazz was not in our companies plans. We Jazzies are simply fluff in the wind like you.

Good times are coming so hang in there.


BC (Jazz pilot )
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BingBong
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by BingBong »

As I posted in another thread:

Right from a signed agreement FROM ACPA AND AIR CANADA

The pilot's seniority date as described in Article 4.01 will be the date Air Canada offered him or her . For clarity, the pilot will be provided a reserve seniority date. This date will be the course date stipulated in the letter of offer of employment from Air Canada. This will be the pilot’s "Offer of Employment" date. In the event that there are several pilots with the identical seniority date, the seniority order will be determined by lottery, except that those pilots from the PML will be selected in seniority order.
For example: A pilot training course is scheduled for 10 pilots on January 30th, 2015. The Company provides offers to 8 Jazz pilots from the PML and 2 pilots from the street (pilots A.B. and C.D). 2 Jazz pilots opt to defer their Employment Date and are replaced with 2 other Jazz pilots. As a result, during the lottery there will 12 pilots whose seniority will be determined at the conclusion of that training course. For the Jazz pilots the word “Jazz” will be used, whereas the other two pilots will use their names.Then each ballot will be selected to determine the seniority numbers. Assuming the order of the ballots was “Jazz, Jazz, A.B., Jazz, C.D., Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz” the result would be as follows: the senior most Jazz pilot on the course, which may be one of the two who deferred, will be provided the first number; the second most senior Jazz pilot will receive the second number; then A.B. will receive his number; then the third most senior Jazz pilot; then C.D.; and then continuing through the Jazz pilots in order of their previous relative Jazz

So if your going to defer with Mainline...defer your start date...not your interview date. Now enough fighting boys and girls and let's all go for a beer (or rum. I prefer rum). I've got the first round.

Respectfully,
BingBong
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Redwine
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Redwine »

The latest buzz word as of late? ...Off or on the "property"
If I hear someone say that word again, I'm going to smack them upside the head.
Clear as mud? Done like dinner
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...Seems they are going to remove the axe and the control column from the cockpits for security reasons.
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by AirMail »

Black Cat wrote:Pool peeps,

There a many Jazz pilots on the PML (and not) who wish you the best and hope for your expedited employment with AC. Nobody I've talked to at jazz feel entitle to the course spots, actually, many of us were planning a long and stable career at Jazz until a few weeks ago when it was made clear that a long stable career at jazz was not in our companies plans. We Jazzies are simply fluff in the wind like you.

Good times are coming so hang in there.


BC (Jazz pilot )
This^ It's not Jazz pilots fault at all, this lowering of industry standards is squarely on ACPA and Air Canada. As the saying goes $hit rolls down hill... guess where it's coming from in this case. GG bois
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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by TheStig »

Great post Black Cat

Airmail, can you please explain your attack on ACPA? And Air Canada for that matter.
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Slappy the Squirrel
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Slappy the Squirrel »

Thanks for the info, Bingbong, that certainly clears things up. I can't say it's the news I was hoping for but at least I know what to expect now.

Btw Jazz guys here is one poolie who doesn't hate you guys, we're all just caught up in this together as pawns, as others have said. Forgive the poolies who are angry about this stuff, our outlooks have just changed very rapidly from an awesome future to one where we lost hundreds of seniority numbers (but still looks better than the alternative). Different people react differently to receiving a shock like that.

Just do me a favour, please use your topped up salary to buy me a beer while we're on course together :wink:
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