Made me go a little cross-eyed looking at it too..co-joe wrote:Canoe can you decipher that graph a little? I'm confused with some of the numbers.
TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people crashes
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Sure. The main things to note are the blue dotted line is the #2 engine parameters that indicate the failure. ITT, Fuel Flow and Prop RPM all indicate reductions in values just past the 52:38 mark (obviously more than just those parameters, but those 3 are just easy to point out). At 52:53 you can see the first aft movement of the #1 power lever (PLA). At about 53:20, the #1 condition lever was moved to fuel shut off (Fuel SO). Conversely the #2 condition lever was never placed at Fuel SO.
Even though the #2 engine failed, it never did completely shut-down. If you follow the #1 parameters (of the mistaken shut down engine) compared to #2 you can see #2 oil pressure stays up, still some fuel flow, NH and NL etc. I can't figure out what the actual failure was- something weird goes on with the Torque parameter recording- that would be helpful to see. I don't know anything about the ATR600, so while I have an idea of what the #2 engine problem was, I can't be sure. Does anyone know if the 600 has FADEC?
Not sure if that makes any sense?
Even though the #2 engine failed, it never did completely shut-down. If you follow the #1 parameters (of the mistaken shut down engine) compared to #2 you can see #2 oil pressure stays up, still some fuel flow, NH and NL etc. I can't figure out what the actual failure was- something weird goes on with the Torque parameter recording- that would be helpful to see. I don't know anything about the ATR600, so while I have an idea of what the #2 engine problem was, I can't be sure. Does anyone know if the 600 has FADEC?
Not sure if that makes any sense?
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
By the sounds of it, several of their pilots don't even know if the 600 has FADEC
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/10-pilots-f ... -1.2230739

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/10-pilots-f ... -1.2230739
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
That's great. Thanks.
What's with the crazy up down #2 torque numbers and then later the spastic oil pressure readings? Are those the kind of things the human eye just wouldn't see but a computer can graph or is it like a prop going in and out of feather as oil pressure rebounds and then plummets? Bootstrapping or hunting?
What's with the crazy up down #2 torque numbers and then later the spastic oil pressure readings? Are those the kind of things the human eye just wouldn't see but a computer can graph or is it like a prop going in and out of feather as oil pressure rebounds and then plummets? Bootstrapping or hunting?
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Maybe it's NTS'ing - but I know nothing about that engine type. Does it NTS? I imagine it has something similar?or is it like a prop going in and out of feather as oil pressure rebounds and then plummets? Bootstrapping or hunting?
In other news - half of Trans asias pilots have been suspended for either failing or not taking a proficiency test! Pretty scary.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tai ... snewsreu11
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
On one of our phases of recurrent training we do run a scenario whereby weather is hot and lo and behold...incomplete ATPCS sequence so no feathering....guess what....it climbs...not spectacularly like it does here in the north this afternoon but it does climb!
So as has been stated previously, if they had done nothing at all they probably would have been hoisting drinks with the lads after work.
SLOW THE FUK DOWN....PLEASE!!!!
ETTW
So as has been stated previously, if they had done nothing at all they probably would have been hoisting drinks with the lads after work.
SLOW THE FUK DOWN....PLEASE!!!!
ETTW
1. The company pays me to make money for it.
2. If the company doesn't make money neither do I
3. I still hate simulators
2. If the company doesn't make money neither do I
3. I still hate simulators
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
They help, but it depends entirely on how they're done. In most cases they are a compulsory set of words - uncorrelated to any actions - spewed forth by rote memory in microburst fashion. In my airline's case they are supposed to be done with PF/PM roles being played according to even/odd dates irrespective of who is even going to be flying the airplane that leg.Liquid Charlie wrote:I have mixed feelings how much this helps it's the same with scripted crew briefings -- people tend to spew them out from memory at such a high rate that no one pays attention anyway -- as far as drills -- you have to know them and if you are depending on crew briefings to keep them in your memory -- come on -- it's too late - it's fuked already --
When I do them the correct PF/PM roles are played for the next takeoff, and we do them slowly and methodically while physically rehearsing the actual corresponding actions. In some rare cases even the simple change of cadence throws guys completely off and they have to struggle to remember the next step. I also don't mind interruptions and distractions while doing them as both will be a certainty in a real situation. They are done the way most guys do them as a matter of training and airline culture.
Approach briefings are another thing. Standard briefs as 99.9% of the guys give them are done with no actual thought put into them and sound just like the teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons. Irrelevant stuff like published visibility are briefed because it's standard even when the reported visibility is 40nm, and relevant stuff like step-down altitudes, rates of descent, configuration planning, airspeed planning, terrain etc. etc. etc. are not mentioned because they aren't in the standard brief example. Might as well not say anything...
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
The fundamentals are obviously not there. I suppose as the latest group of pilots, pushed through training and stuffed in the right seat without ever having 'flown' a real airplane, which is not the process here in Canada, Our Hero starts to actually be expected to be a captain and actually take charge of the aircraft; the weaknesses in training and background are glaring.
"Dead leg dead engine - verify!"
I suppose that doesn't work if you don't know what the rudder is for and how it works. But what about all those silly gauges, that Master Warning making all that noise? Never heard that before? They tell us modern pilots are systems managers, if that's so, how come you got all the simple systems stuff so wrong?
I'd sure like to hear the (translation) of that CVR to hear what they were actually doing in there. All three of them. Hero, my ass.
Rant Switch .......OFF
So it all comes down to professionalism. If you are so bored in the cockpit, you have made that leg so many times, briefed that approach so often that you can't come up with any enthusiasm for the process, why are you there? Shouldn't that be a red flag to yourself that you need to examine what you're doing?
"Dead leg dead engine - verify!"
I suppose that doesn't work if you don't know what the rudder is for and how it works. But what about all those silly gauges, that Master Warning making all that noise? Never heard that before? They tell us modern pilots are systems managers, if that's so, how come you got all the simple systems stuff so wrong?
I'd sure like to hear the (translation) of that CVR to hear what they were actually doing in there. All three of them. Hero, my ass.
Rant Switch .......OFF
So it all comes down to professionalism. If you are so bored in the cockpit, you have made that leg so many times, briefed that approach so often that you can't come up with any enthusiasm for the process, why are you there? Shouldn't that be a red flag to yourself that you need to examine what you're doing?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
In my books, the good old “Dead Foot, Dead Engine” works. You can't go wrong. The plane yaws toward the dead engine. I learned that in a beaten up 150 HP Apache 40 years ago, like a bunch of us.
Why they didn’t do that drill is over my head. I know, I wasn’t in that cockpit but as Xs says above, we’re looking at the basics of multi-engine flying.
That darn rudder…does the average modern airline pilot has a perfect understanding of it? Can they all handle a 65 HP Luscombe in a light crosswind? Sad to say but I doubt it.
BUT… When you fly a Luscombe at gross weight, you have only one passenger at risk.
RB
Why they didn’t do that drill is over my head. I know, I wasn’t in that cockpit but as Xs says above, we’re looking at the basics of multi-engine flying.
That darn rudder…does the average modern airline pilot has a perfect understanding of it? Can they all handle a 65 HP Luscombe in a light crosswind? Sad to say but I doubt it.
BUT… When you fly a Luscombe at gross weight, you have only one passenger at risk.
RB
Flying an aircraft and building a guitar are two things that are easy to do bad and difficult to do right
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Exactly ettw;ettw wrote:On one of our phases of recurrent training we do run a scenario whereby weather is hot and lo and behold...incomplete ATPCS sequence so no feathering....guess what....it climbs...not spectacularly like it does here in the north this afternoon but it does climb!
So as has been stated previously, if they had done nothing at all they probably would have been hoisting drinks with the lads after work.
SLOW THE FUK DOWN....PLEASE!!!!
ETTW
Me thinks the first thing to control in the event of any emergency, flying or not, is ourself, then, the situation. It boils down to BE PREPARED.
Flying an aircraft and building a guitar are two things that are easy to do bad and difficult to do right
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Dead leg, dead engine only really works if you hold a constant heading. ie "step on the bug".
Set heading bug, and hold heading with rudder then it's a no brainer, and having pnf verify on the guages confirm the auto feather should just back it up? What I saw on tv, showed a nearly constantly changine heading. I'd bet it would be really easy to mis identify the failed stove while banking towards it...
I'm almost wondering if they thought they had a runaway condition on the left engine since the right engine still showed signs of ITT.
Set heading bug, and hold heading with rudder then it's a no brainer, and having pnf verify on the guages confirm the auto feather should just back it up? What I saw on tv, showed a nearly constantly changine heading. I'd bet it would be really easy to mis identify the failed stove while banking towards it...
I'm almost wondering if they thought they had a runaway condition on the left engine since the right engine still showed signs of ITT.
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Fair point. Basically you really only learn one thing when you get your Multi Rating. And that's what you are going to do when that second engine fails and you're going 'back to single engine' flying. The interesting part here really is how a total of three experienced pilots didn't realize what was going on. I hope it's not another one of those hierarchy issues that seems to pretty common among asian crews where the less experienced are afraid of speaking up to the old experienced pilots. The CVR will hopefully give some more insight.Rudder Bug wrote:Why they didn’t do that drill is over my head. I know, I wasn’t in that cockpit but as Xs says above, we’re looking at the basics of multi-engine flying.
Regarding the dead leg - dead engine. How does that work when you're in an airliner that is being flown by the autopilot? I understand they were still pretty low and most likely hand flying but a little later and the autopilot would have had control of the airplane.
Last edited by MIQ on Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Would this be another case when auto pilot crashed the aircraft?
Flying an aircraft and building a guitar are two things that are easy to do bad and difficult to do right
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
-- It does -- eventually -- and of course this varies with type but with some aircraft types such as a herc or anything else with an NTS system can actually fool you if you react too quickly - you will step on the wrong rudder which will put you into a flight regime that might not be recoverable --In my books, the good old “Dead Foot, Dead Engine” works
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
It can fool you also with an FCU malfunction.
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
Indeed it can -- good point -- I remember a check airman doing that to me - at V1 the engine went to firewall thrust -- took me completely by surprise and by the time we identified the problem cleaned up and did the drill the airspeed was in excess of 250kts -- a great lesson in flying the aircraft and modifying SOP's to deal with the situation ---It can fool you also with an FCU malfunction.
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Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
ATR release indicates an observer. Wonder if there was some unknown inter-personal dynamics at play that could help explain why 2 pilots could screw it up so badly.
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
3 pilots...
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Tr ... 554-1.html
"More than half of TransAsia's ATR pilots are grounded as the airline continues to test their proficiency. Ten of 49 pilots so far are grounded after failing the oral exams"
"More than half of TransAsia's ATR pilots are grounded as the airline continues to test their proficiency. Ten of 49 pilots so far are grounded after failing the oral exams"

Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
I had an interesting discussion with a ATR 72-600 TRI/TRE who has as much experience on type as anyone flying the sub type. His thoughts ran to the warning messages. He mentioned you will get messages in an order like Torque fault and so on and they don't really tell you what is happening. ( I haven't flown any version of the ATR so I have no experience with this). He also mentioned that with the automatic rudder trim until you are very comfortable with it , that it can throw people off as to what is really happening.
Perhaps a little too much automation mixed with all the other difficulties. Just a thought.
He also mentioned that as part of the industry group that worked on the ATR 72-600 they recommended it be a different type rating since in their minds it was so different. The 5 DU's no standard instruments and so on. It of course is not a new type.
Hopefully some good factual evidence will come out and prevent this from happening again.
Perhaps a little too much automation mixed with all the other difficulties. Just a thought.
He also mentioned that as part of the industry group that worked on the ATR 72-600 they recommended it be a different type rating since in their minds it was so different. The 5 DU's no standard instruments and so on. It of course is not a new type.
Hopefully some good factual evidence will come out and prevent this from happening again.
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
TransAsia Airways is recruiting more ATR72-500 & 600 expatriate Captains -
Apply now for March/April Screenings!
TransAsia Airways (based in Taiwan,the hidden gem of East Asia) require experienced ATR72-500 and 600 Captains.
About TransAsia:
TransAsia Airways was founded in 1951, as the first private civil airline in Taiwan. It operates domestic routes and 15 scheduled international routes mainly on Southeast and Northeast Asia and cross-strait flights.
Contract Term: 3 years, renewable
Base: Taipei, Taiwan
Days Off: 6 weeks on 2 weeks off (with return tickets home)
Excellent pay & benefits - For more details about this contract, Please click the link below to download the full Terms and Conditions:
Taipei Screening :
Mid to Late March/April 2015 (exact dates to be confirmed) •Each individual screening is likely to consist of an Interview, SIM Check, ATR72 System Test, Medical Check and ICAO English Test., in Taipei Taiwan
•Hotel accommodation will be provided by TransAsia
•Ground Transport in Taipei will be reimbursed in full (with receipts)
•You will need to arrange your own return flights and obtain necessary visas (if applicable) to attend the screening in Taiwan. The cost of the return air ticket will be reimbursed by TransAsia after the screening (regardless of the screening result) provided that the ticket cost is pre-approved by the airline.
Airline Minimum Requirements: •Total Flight Time: 4,000+ hours
•Total PIC time: 1000+ hours on ATR Family
•Last flight on ATR: Within 12 months
•Age: Under 60 years at start of contract
•ICAO Radio Telephony Licence
•English Proficiency ICAO Level 4 or above
•Valid/current Class 1 Medical Certificate
•NO history of incidents or accidents and criminal record
Fees (NET after tax in Taiwan has been paid by the airline):
US$ 9,367 NET approx. per month (after checked to line) including:
Base fee per month
US$ 7,500.00 net
Accommodation Allowance*
US$1,200 equivalent (NTD36,000) or
accommodation provided
Bonus* US$667 per month averaged over term of t
the contract
*Please see more details under Accommodation below
Overtime:
Overtime is paid after 75 block hours per month at a rate of 1/75th of the base fee per hour
(US$86.66 per hour).
*Bonus:
You will receive a bonus of US$ 24,000.00 upon completion of the 3 year assignment.
Apply now for March/April Screenings!
TransAsia Airways (based in Taiwan,the hidden gem of East Asia) require experienced ATR72-500 and 600 Captains.
About TransAsia:
TransAsia Airways was founded in 1951, as the first private civil airline in Taiwan. It operates domestic routes and 15 scheduled international routes mainly on Southeast and Northeast Asia and cross-strait flights.
Contract Term: 3 years, renewable
Base: Taipei, Taiwan
Days Off: 6 weeks on 2 weeks off (with return tickets home)
Excellent pay & benefits - For more details about this contract, Please click the link below to download the full Terms and Conditions:
Taipei Screening :
Mid to Late March/April 2015 (exact dates to be confirmed) •Each individual screening is likely to consist of an Interview, SIM Check, ATR72 System Test, Medical Check and ICAO English Test., in Taipei Taiwan
•Hotel accommodation will be provided by TransAsia
•Ground Transport in Taipei will be reimbursed in full (with receipts)
•You will need to arrange your own return flights and obtain necessary visas (if applicable) to attend the screening in Taiwan. The cost of the return air ticket will be reimbursed by TransAsia after the screening (regardless of the screening result) provided that the ticket cost is pre-approved by the airline.
Airline Minimum Requirements: •Total Flight Time: 4,000+ hours
•Total PIC time: 1000+ hours on ATR Family
•Last flight on ATR: Within 12 months
•Age: Under 60 years at start of contract
•ICAO Radio Telephony Licence
•English Proficiency ICAO Level 4 or above
•Valid/current Class 1 Medical Certificate
•NO history of incidents or accidents and criminal record
Fees (NET after tax in Taiwan has been paid by the airline):
US$ 9,367 NET approx. per month (after checked to line) including:
Base fee per month
US$ 7,500.00 net
Accommodation Allowance*
US$1,200 equivalent (NTD36,000) or
accommodation provided
Bonus* US$667 per month averaged over term of t
the contract
*Please see more details under Accommodation below
Overtime:
Overtime is paid after 75 block hours per month at a rate of 1/75th of the base fee per hour
(US$86.66 per hour).
*Bonus:
You will receive a bonus of US$ 24,000.00 upon completion of the 3 year assignment.
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
As usual....etc.cdnpilot77 wrote:Jebus!
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
This physically angers me to the point of wanting to hit people, hard. Namely the people responsible for running an operation that killed people with this level of wanton incompetence."More than half of TransAsia's ATR pilots are grounded as the airline continues to test their proficiency. Ten of 49 pilots so far are grounded after failing the oral exams"
Re: TransAsia Airways plane carrying more than 50 people cra
And then stalled / spun it. Even with both engines out for whatever reason it should not be too much to ask that a pilot not spin into the ground. If they had stayed wings level perhaps a few more people might have lived.