Encore - Not Worth It

[AlphaOne]

I make more than that flying bagged out King Airs. Why would you accept that pay for a shiny new Q400 with 78 people in the back?

Ditto, I make Encore CAPTAIN pay flying Caravans and Navajos DAY VFR! Give your head a shake guys and gals and demand what your worth. 36k right seat in a Q400 is a joke no matter what way you look at it, last I checked the bank still doesn't accept 705 time for down payments.

Mike

Ah Mike, that's not really the point now, is it. You're saying a guy should make MORE money than you, for doing LESS? You work harder for your money than the guy flying the bright shiny Q400. You put in more hours per month, do more landings and generally do more "flying"...You should make more money!
I've been where you are. No FMS. No autopilot. No back up.
THINKABOUTIT
Illya

That is by far the dumbest justification for Encore's slave wages I've ever seen on this forum. If Encore guys make 36k for the amount of work they do, then a 777 driver pond hopping 5 times a month should only make, oh I don't know, 12K?

[Illya Kuryakin]

AlphaOne, I'd be willing to bet dinner for two at the KEG, that if you advertised 777 FO jobs that paid 12K a year, pilots would be lined up around the block to fill them! I guarentee it!
But, that really wasn't where I was going here.
Bottom line.....you know what the pay is up front. Don't like it, don't apply.
Illya

[rudder]

AlphaOne, I'd be willing to bet dinner for two at the KEG, that if you advertised 777 FO jobs that paid 12K a year, pilots would be lined up around the block to fill them! I guarentee it!
But, that really wasn't where I was going here.
Bottom line.....you know what the pay is up front. Don't like it, don't apply.
Illya

Bingo.

Law of supply and demand. For every pilot that says 'no' two others say 'yes'.

Until job ads with low ball pay go unanswered nothing will change. Doesn't matter what the airline name is painted on the side.

[AirMail]

This is occurring in the US now. Some low paying regionals are crying pilot shortage, when the fact is it's a shortage of pilots willing to fly for low wages. Encore/Jazz could very well be seeing this happening in the future. Will it take tails being parked as they can't find crews to fill them to raise the wages/conditions?

And while I agree, don't like it - don't apply, and hope many don't. It's just the justification for that and the continued race to the bottom that's not cool. There is no justification for lower wages ever, period! Especially in profitable times.

Just hate seeing fellow aviators struggle, for what... it's not worth it to put families through that.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Can't see Encore/Jazz ever having a problem filling the right seats with pilots willing to work for $1500 a month, as long as it's more attractive (and, it is) to sit in a nice shiny jet prop, than work on a ramp in Upper Armpit Lake.
Illya

[North Shore]

And, will that beat-up KingAir or 'Van lead you directly to the left seat of a 737 (787?) paying $200k-ish a year?

Still, it's really too bad that there's not room under the WJ umbrella for someone to make a decent living doing regional flying, rather than being forced to chase the 737.

[esp803]

And, will that beat-up KingAir or 'Van lead you directly to the left seat of a 737 (787?) paying $200k-ish a year?

Nope, it won't.

There are caravan jobs out there that pay in the low 6 figures though. Sure it's not 200k a year, but if you can't live comfortably and enjoy life on a 100k, you're doing something wrong.

E

[Donald]

And, will that beat-up KingAir or 'Van lead you directly to the left seat of a 737 (787?) paying $200k-ish a year?

Nope.

But neither does Encore or Jazz.

[Illya Kuryakin]

And, will that beat-up KingAir or 'Van lead you directly to the left seat of a 737 (787?) paying $200k-ish a year?

Nope, it won't.

There are caravan jobs out there that pay in the low 6 figures though. Sure it's not 200k a year, but if you can't live comfortably and enjoy life on a 100k, you're doing something wrong.

E

And, say you can only make 75 a year in that same Van, that's still double the FO rate at Encore, and even tops out the captain salary.....so, in the first several ( if not many) years, the Van driver is on top.
On my first FSI Caravan course, I met several pilots who were not planning to chase "tin".
After two months of trying to "survive" in YYZ or YYC on 35K a year, the shine will get a wee bit dull.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

And, will that beat-up KingAir or 'Van lead you directly to the left seat of a 737 (787?) paying $200k-ish a year?

Nope.

But neither does Encore or Jazz.

Sad. But very true.
Illya

[PointyEngine]

So from what I can gather there will be soon only two ways into the majors. Either through the poverty feeders (AKA Encore and Jazz) or get heavy time elsewhere, then jump ship. I guess operators such as CN or Flair will be where most guys will look, if not heavy operators abroad to get the time and attempt to sidestep the need for food stamps and parental loans?

[goingnowherefast]

I hope most people will avoid the "poverty feeders". Seems like pilots in Canada are starting to realize that there's money to be made working elsewhere and don't need to deal with Jazz/Encore wages. I usually don't wish poorly of others, but I hope this falls apart for them and they are forced to offer professional level pay.

I know my king air won't lead me to 200k in a 737, but that's okay. I can make a respectable wage outside the majors, and I won't have to spend 10 days a month in a hotel room either.

[Donald]

Keep in mind that if you're over the age of 30 now, you wouldn't see the left seat of the WJ 737 potentially until you're 50.

Not sure about AC, but probably similar considering how long it would take from OTS to Jazz to Mainline.

[scraps]

Keep in mind that if you're over the age of 30 now, you wouldn't see the left seat of the WJ 737 potentially until you're 50.

You're predicting upgrade times at WJ to be potentially up to 20 years?

[Donald]

If you factor in time spent at Encore? Yeah I could see 20+ years.

[scraps]

The time spent at Encore counts towards the upgrade to the left seat at WJ. That's why getting one list was such a big deal.

[Go Guns]

The time spent at Encore counts towards the upgrade to the left seat at WJ. That's why getting one list was such a big deal.

This As it is one list, If you get hired on Encore tomorrow, you'll be in the left seat of the 737 sooner then someone hired at WestJet as a 737 FO next week.

So if it's twenty years to upgrade for a new 'Q' FO, it's twenty years to upgrade for a new 737 FO.

[Donald]

Good on WJ for the one list.
However the new hire 737 FO is making more money faster, than the Encore guy.

Either way, IF, the 737 fleet sees little growth, than it's just the retirements that spur upgrades. That could equal a very long wait. Recent hires were told 12-15 years to upgrade. That combined with flow at a rate of 25-50% could also mean a much longer stay at Encore before going on the 737 (less ground schools) which again means a lot less money.

What's the outlook for a new hire at AC mainline for years-to-upgrade as a comparison?

[Canadianjetpilot]

Good on WJ for the one list.
However the new hire 737 FO is making more money faster, than the Encore guy.

Either way, IF, the 737 fleet sees little growth, than it's just the retirements that spur upgrades. That could equal a very long wait. Recent hires were told 12-15 years to upgrade. That combined with flow at a rate of 25-50% could also mean a much longer stay at Encore before going on the 737 (less ground schools) which again means a lot less money.

That's right. It would take a WJE FO nearly EIGHT(!) years to make the 1st year WJ FO pay...and that's assuming they keep the 80 hour guarantee. Not likely they would stay in the right seat that long but it gives you an idea of the difference. Your WJE time does not carry over to WJ. Year one pay is what you get to start with when you get there. For a WJE captain that could be a pay cut from 72k (eg 2 years WJE) down to 52k. Nor does your right seat time carry credit for the upgrade until year 9 at WJ if and when it comes.

Even IF WJ could maintain 50% flow and even IF WJ hired 40 guys a year, do the math, if you're pilot 200+ at WJE you'll be waiting nearly 10 years and then take a 40% wage cut. All the while working 20 days a month vs. WJ 16. (FYI The likelihood of those 20 days being reduced is slim to none considering the intensity with which WJ is trying to increase days worked at their shop)

Presently WJE has no agreement so you don't even have a (official) guide as to where you will be WRT scheduling, pay, upgrade, base etc. The assumption is it will improve but that is a very big gamble. At least these things are clearly defined at the other shop.

The one bright light to it all is that the WJPA is busting their butts, along with the support of the WJ pilot group to improve all these issues.

I just think those who are considering a move WJE should be aware of all these things. If you are one of these people do your due diligence, talk to anyone and everyone you can but don't give much weight to promises (of flow, pay, schedule) because they are easy to give. Base your choice on hard facts and right now the facts are left a little wanting.

[Illya Kuryakin]

There are other good career flying jobs than just WJ and AC. Calm Air just scooped one of our guys, ( a real gentleman. They're lucky they have him )and the pay is better than either Encore or Jazz. No exotic destinations, but the benefits are pretty good.
But even the lowball pay cheques at Encore and Jazz are better than working a ramp for two years and signing your life away on a two year bond after that.
We'd all like to think it's all about the money, but for some, it isn't. Some pilots see nothing wrong with living in Mom's basement till they're 40, or having 16 room mates and sleeping in their cars. Nothing says "I'm an airline pilot!" like a big pot of KD warming on the dashboard after a hard four day pairing!
Illya

[lostaviator]

We all have our reasons for making the decisions we do in our careers. For me, I am young and have many many years of work left. I personally had one of those jobs where I made more money flying a smaller plane. But I didn't want to be doing that kind of flying in 30 years from now. So when encore started up, and hearing wj would slowly be reducing outside hiring I applied.

Sure I voice my concerns on here when a topic comes up but in the big picture I am happy working at Encore. Yes there are issues and yes some of them have been slow to be corrected. I want westjet to be flying in 30-35 years from now so that I still have a job and as someone who likes to look at both sides of the issue, 100% flow would not make sense right now. It would drain resources, the budget. So yes it is slow moving. And I suspect it will continue to be for anyone joining encore right now.

I also don't think holding up a poster telling people not to join your (or a subsidy of your) company a positive step forward. Unstaffed planes, pilots quitting do not benefit westjet or westjet encore. I'm curious to know if all these 10yr+ wj employees who voted for encore and now have these concerns are making them known. Your experience and involvement with the company for that long has led to a very successful company so why not work together to make things better instead of trying to hinder the growth of something that directly affects your operation (and your stocks) as well.

[up on one]

Some of the best advice I have ever been given in my short aviation career is, "Where do you want to be when the music stops?" - A.F.
I would kick myself if I wound up making poverty wages for the next 10 yrs because of another collapse in the economy.

[77W]

While I do not agree with Encore wages, I do think one list is a good step. I could see Encore captains riding that seat for a while longer before bidding over to a 737 FO spot (a few years before an upgrade).

What I don't understand is how no one wants to own a house or a condo? You're at least 25-30 years old going on 5 years into your career with nothing to show for your work? There is simply no way an FO nor even a captain for that matter, can purchase property in the YYC area without external support. That is unless you hit the sugar mama jackpot.

I do believe in the economics of supply and demand, so I will sit where I am. I would really like to join team teal, but I know I deserve better than that.

[Canadianjetpilot]

I also don't think holding up a poster telling people not to join your (or a subsidy of your) company a positive step forward. Unstaffed planes, pilots quitting do not benefit westjet or westjet encore. I'm curious to know if all these 10yr+ wj employees who voted for encore and now have these concerns are making them known. Your experience and involvement with the company for that long has led to a very successful company so why not work together to make things better instead of trying to hinder the growth of something that directly affects your operation (and your stocks) as well.

I'm not going to 'eat my young' to improve my stock and profit share cheque.

And, we are working to make things better. (not something commonly seen at parent companies)

In simplest terms the only reasons things have improved at Encore are:
1) The conditions were so poor they weren't getting resumes.
NOTE- When the WJ pilots voted for Encore it was with the caveat that they improve the proposed work conditions for just that reason. Well, turns out we were right and so they had to move the bar...just enough to get some bodies coming in the door.
2) The WJ pilots via the WJPA fought/are fighting pretty darn hard for WJE pilots.
i.e. - One list, 80 min guarantee, flow, scheduling and of course a the push for a TA.

Make no mistake. Ferio does not want to give a millimeter and (as many of you know) until its in writing the goal posts can move.

I'm not saying do not come to Encore. If you are willing to accept the conditions than do so. I just want people to be aware of what the REAL conditions are.

[schnitzel2k3]

There are other good career flying jobs than just WJ and AC. Calm Air just scooped one of our guys, ( a real gentleman. They're lucky they have him )and the pay is better than either Encore or Jazz. No exotic destinations, but the benefits are pretty good.
But even the lowball pay cheques at Encore and Jazz are better than working a ramp for two years and signing your life away on a two year bond after that.

Definitely agree with better jobs out there - people are just too focused on the paved road to....riches....rather than the road less traveled.

But if you could go direct to Encore rather than work ramp for 36k - people probably wouldn't be complaining.

Unfortunately that is not the case, and a lot of the guys and gals going to Encore are 3-4k hour pilots with that 500+mpic (likely with lots of 704/05 and +12500 time) - pilots that were earning 65000+. They've invested 5-7 years or more of their life to take a huge financial step back for what some might argue is a better lifestyle....

*shrugs*

To each their own. Perhaps a financial planning/basic economics course should be mandatory with the CPL/ATPL application