You're doing it wrong.

DanWEC · Post by **DanWEC** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:12 am

Just a reminder that literally everybody logs their hours wrong.

CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".

On the topic of flight training, who here has actually logged their time from when they start taxiing? Nope, Hobbs starts when the engine starts. Same with schools that use clock time instead of Hobbs.
We've all been logging listening to the ATIS, radio calls, post start checks, etc. before we finally release the brakes and let that mighty beast loose, as flight time.

In conclusion, everyone has more hours than we should. by about a .1 per flight. Tthppppt.

(Hey, it's Wx'd out. I'm bored)

PilotDAR · Post by **PilotDAR** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:45 am

Hmmm, not so fast Dan... There are skills being demonstrated and honed even in the meager tasks of getting in, closing the door, and listening to the ATIS! Heck, there are piloting skills being demonstrated by walking out to the apron, and correctly identifying the aircraft type, or if that's failing, correctly recognizing registration letters! The demonstration of those skills might be worthy of "time" credit. As opposed to that fact that I can log flying time a half hour into my flight, when the aircraft is hurtling through space more or less on its own, while I mostly watch, but more root around the bottom of my flight bag, looking for the sandwich and cookies I know I put in there! Logging time to find you lunch?

If those occasional .1's are so important, let the pilot have them, as long as they were at least touching a plane that they later flew successfully.....

simon76 · Post by **simon76** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:30 am

You can make up for it when you are stuck in traffic waiting to takeoff and you are working where you just add a .1 to the air time each trip.

Actually I'm curious with examples in the states where you spend a good hour taxing do they add this to the flight time. This would be significant when pilots are maxing out their flight time limits. Where I work it's always just add the point 1 but then again I'm in uncontrolled and spend very little time taxiing.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:53 am

And then in the airline world, a lot of flight time gets logged from chocks off to chocks on (brakes released to brakes on).

In Journey Logs, air time is usually being logged incorrectly on the bugsmasher section too- with it often being a standard of 0.2 less than flight time. Had one CP explains that the TC Inspector gets suspicious when it is less than 0.2 difference from flight time.

Just sayin'.

Conquest Driver · Post by **Conquest Driver** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:08 am

Assuming that you want maximum flight time all you do is start the engine then, as soon as safe, allow the aircraft to move 6 inches forward for a brake check. Then you do all the rest of what you have to do before you can go flying.

esp803 · Post by **esp803** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:49 am

I just make up the stuff that goes in my log book. Seems to have worked so far.

E

Lotro · Post by **Lotro** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:23 am

I keep two long books, one for me and one for Otto (my co-pilot).

After I rotate, I check the time and then give control to Otto. He does most of the real flying anyways, while I read a book, or look out the window. Then when we get close to the destination I take control from him and land.

This allows me to log PIC and takeoffs and landings in my log book, and SIC for the cross country time. The best of both worlds!

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:24 am

My logbook is a work of fiction that somewhat correlates with reality.

niss · Post by **niss** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:35 am

I thought a logbook was when you facebook while taking a dump. What are you guys talking about?

DanWEC · Post by **DanWEC** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:49 am

In that case, you should see my Captain's Log. Quite a sight.

Big Pistons Forever · Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:06 am

Of all the things "wrong" in flight training, I would suggest this issue is near the bottom of the list.

airway · Post by **airway** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:31 am

Here we go again,

These are the definitions from the CARS:

“air time”
“air time” means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

“flight time”
“flight time” means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

Apparently, flight time will be changed soon to start at brake release time, to make it legal to log flight time for pushbacks.

In order to comply with these definitions, you will need to record 4 times: (everyone at my company does this)

Start Taxi, Take Off, Landing, and Stop Taxi

If you taxi and do not take off for any reason, there should be no Log Book entry.
Log Books may be kept in minutes or tenths of hours (my company uses minutes, and my personal Log Book is in minutes).

I don't care how you log your time and Transport may or may not care, just understand that if you are using Hobbs Time, adding .1 or .2 to air time to get flight time, or subtracting .1 or .2 from flight time to get air time, you are not complying with the CARS on some flights.

Any of these alternate methods can be significantly wrong if you are delayed during the taxi in or out for any reason (deice, troubleshooting mechanical issues, long line up for take off, whether or not you are doing a runup, long taxi to or from runway, waiting for a gate at the end of the flight).

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:12 am

Apparently, flight time will be changed soon to start at brake release time, to make it legal to log flight time for pushbacks.

Pushing back isn't 'moving under its own power'.

AirFrame · Post by **AirFrame** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:17 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Apparently, flight time will be changed soon to start at brake release time, to make it legal to log flight time for pushbacks.
Pushing back isn't 'moving under its own power'.

Hence the qualifier "will be changed soon".

DanWEC · Post by **DanWEC** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:33 am

Airway, you might be missing the pointless point of the topic- has nothing to do with air time vs flight time, it's the time spent with the engine running before the plane actually moves for taxi, usually several minutes listening to ATIS, setting up avionics, etc.

Assuming about 175 flights for a CPL, and depending on what airport the FTU is at, A CPL could have 15-20 hours extra time that shouldn't technically be loggable by the CARS def of flight time.

airway · Post by **airway** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:18 pm

DanWEC wrote:Airway, you might be missing the pointless point of the topic- has nothing to do with air time vs flight time, it's the time spent with the engine running before the plane actually moves for taxi, usually several minutes listening to ATIS, setting up avionics, etc.
.

Well, I was replying to your statement that everyone logs time wrong (eg. Hobbs time, or "clock time", what is that anyway?). I don't, most or all 705 airlines don't, and the flight school where I spent 8 years at didn't. I know there are many flight schools that use Hobbs time though.

Also, there were a couple posters that mentioned adding .1 or .2 to air time to get flight time so I was replying to them as well.

One other dubious method of timing a flight that I have heard of is using the Tachometer time. Which can be very inaccurate.

As far as not logging time before you start taxi, I'm guessing, but maybe transport doesn't want someone who is paying for flight time to rush things after they start the engine (give it time to warm up, carefully set up instruments and check everything).

DanWEC · Post by **DanWEC** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:37 pm

What kind of logging did you do at your flight school?

Hobbs meter times obviously commences at engine start, which means your logging time before you move.
Clock time means the hobbs meter is ignored, and you're manually recording the times for Engine Start, T/O, Land, and Engine Stop. I've been at 2 FTU's that uses straight Hobbs, and 2 that takes times. Technically the clock times columns should be "Taxi start" not "engine start", but I've never seen one like that.

I'm looking at this purely from an FTU and GA perspective, not operators.

Cheers.

airway · Post by **airway** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:55 pm

DanWEC wrote:What kind of logging did you do at your flight school?
.

Start Taxi, Take Off, Landing, Stop Taxi

Hobbs time was ignored.

Illya Kuryakin · Post by **Illya Kuryakin** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:58 pm

You close the door, reach for the starter, your flight has begun. If that makes you feel guilty, let the beast roll forward two feet, check the brakes, THEN listen to the ATIS, monkey with the knobs, bells and dials. It's moved. You're legal. Feel better? Let this silliness stop. Engine start IS part of a flight. Try flying without it!
Now, be careful out there.
Illya

single_swine_herder · Post by **single_swine_herder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:08 pm

If you pay for it, and can screw up while its in your custody with the engine running, .... log it with a clear conscience.

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:15 pm

All this accuracy down to the minute of brake release vs engine start vs taxi to depart is a waste of time when you round it to the nearest tenth (6 minutes). Other than a first flight any given day that requires a warm up and run up, I don't think I have ever taken more than 6 minutes to get airborne.

pelmet · Post by **pelmet** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:45 pm

Just reduced the number of hours it took for me to solo

. After estimating all that time spent with the instructor back then with the engine running before taxiing. plus there is the time spent on mag checks, turning off radios, etc after we arrived in our parking spot.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:51 pm

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:All this accuracy down to the minute of brake release vs engine start vs taxi to depart is a waste of time when you round it to the nearest tenth (6 minutes). Other than a first flight any given day that requires a warm up and run up, I don't think I have ever taken more than 6 minutes to get airborne.

do you round up or do you round down?!?!

JMACK · Post by **JMACK** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:07 pm

Dan said he was bored!

Due to:
SPECI CYOW 212114Z 06007KT 1 1/2SM -SN DRSN OVC009 M11/M13 A3003 RMK
SN6SC2 SLP179=

How you doing Dan. Still in the YOW area?

Jim

DanWEC · Post by **DanWEC** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:26 pm

Mr. Mack!! Hope all is well with you. I'll shoot you a PM, yes still at YOW but things are brewing for the near future...

Sad, I look at that metar (Which improved over the 1/2 mile, VV004 earlier.) and all I think is, "Wow, -11? It's warm today!!"

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