New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Krimson]

I don't think anyone starting at jazz now will be seeing AC in the next 15 years...To sign up now and put your name on the bottom of the list of all feeder carriers, your shot will only come up after every single pilot at JZA/SKY/GGN have had their shot. Anyone getting hired now is just a replacement at these airlines until the game changes again.

I respectfully disagree. Not all will flow for various reasons, medical, interview, too close to retirement. I think Jazz would be a great choice for someone in their 20's. It would all but garantee a position at Mainline down the road.

DP.

Yes it could very well be, however I see it another way. To me the risk of going to Jazz now is too high. Factoring in people who do not wish to leave, there are still over 2000 pilots who will get their shot at AC (once the list opens to all feeders) before a new hire at Jazz. 60% of Jazz pilots, 90% of SKY, 90% of GGN will try to switch over to AC. To be at the bottom, you may very well be sitting at Jazz come 2025. Where is your job security now? That 23 year old is now 33 with a family and mortgage. There may still be 600 pilots ahead of you on the list to AC and now guys are getting hired OTS with less time than what you have, that 20% chance isn't looking so bad anymore. It is personally not a place I would like to be in.

This is all speculation as I do not have a crystal ball, but to put all my eggs in one basket and count on an AC interview 15 years down the road isn't something too appealing. Just ask anyone who is now stuck at a 703/704 operator who was waiting for that AC interview which has now disappeared overnight. What's stopping AC from removing the list from the Jazz guys once all their high paid pilots are now retired or at AC? They effectively cut the cost, put everyone on the lowest paid regional scale out there, now they can continue like normal taking 100% OTS.

[rudder]

20% of 1000 = 200.

Thats how many OTS spots will be available over the next 7-10 years. Subtract the current pool of 60 and that leaves just 140 spots. Those will likely disappear to sons and daughters leaving little available for non-affiliated OTS applicants.

So, are you feeling lucky?

Yes, the rules of the game just changed. AC is no longer the company making legacy type decisions based on "this is how we have done it for years". Now, AC is the company that makes 100% of its decisions based on the bottom line. No emotion. Just business.

It is a new paradigm. And AC must also ensure that the AC Express system remains fully staffed and operational so like it or not the path to AC will pass through AC Express for most of the pilots added to AC in the next decade.

[sstaurus]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

[Krimson]

Completely agree with Rudder, OTS is not looking very good right now, but neither is Jazz. Personally I would avoid it all together and not put my future career and family down to luck of timing.

To anyone who was hoping to have a chance at an AC interview in the future, I think it is just time to change with the times and make alternate plans. It's a game of chess being played where you are the pawns.

[FlyHigh13]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

I don't believe that's how it works. I believe 80% of AC's hiring will be done by All Express carriers once PML is exhausted. The amount from each express carrier is a ratio of how many pilots they employ. Since Jazz is still the largest, they will have the largest cut of the express carriers. If the PML list is exhausted already, that means it will probably be the new hires now who will be going because everyone ahead of them already decided to go or not go.

[BingBong]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

I don't believe that's how it works. I believe 80% of AC's hiring will be done by All Express carriers once PML is exhausted. The amount from each express carrier is a ratio of how many pilots they employ. Since Jazz is still the largest, they will have the largest cut of the express carriers. If the PML list is exhausted already, that means it will probably be the new hires now who will be going because everyone ahead of them already decided to go or not go.

You sir are one of the most sensible on this freakin forum and 100% correct.

Also to note the poolies aren't completely hooped. Here is a snippet fr ACPA MOA regarding the PMA
I think this is the most fair and equitable way of handling senioroty for both jazz pilots and poolies. (Sorry I hate calling you that but it seems to have stuck)
Eg:
A pilot training course is scheduled for 10 pilots on January 30th, 2015. The Company provides offers to 8 Jazz pilots from the PML and 2 pilots from the street (pilots A.B. and C.D). 2 Jazz pilots opt to defer their Employment Date and are replaced with 2 other Jazz pilots. As a result, during the lottery there will 12 pilots whose seniority will be determined at the conclusion of that training course. For the Jazz pilots the word “Jazz” will be used, whereas the other two pilots will use their names.Then each ballot will be selected to determine the seniority numbers. Assuming the order of the ballots was “Jazz, Jazz, A.B., Jazz, C.D., Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz” the result would be as follows: the senior most Jazz pilot on the course, which may be one of the two who deferred, will be provided the first number; the second most senior Jazz pilot will receive the second number; then A.B. will receive his number; then the third most senior Jazz pilot; then C.D.; and then continuing through the Jazz pilots in order of their previous relative Jazz .

Also:

3. In the Air Canada hiring process, the ratio of pilots offered employment by Air Canada pursuant to the PML will be applied, to the extent possible, on a per course basis and reviewed on a quarterly basis in order to track compliance with the minimum hiring requirements stipulated in the Pilot Mobility .

[Krimson]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

I don't believe that's how it works. I believe 80% of AC's hiring will be done by All Express carriers once PML is exhausted. The amount from each express carrier is a ratio of how many pilots they employ. Since Jazz is still the largest, they will have the largest cut of the express carriers. If the PML list is exhausted already, that means it will probably be the new hires now who will be going because everyone ahead of them already decided to go or not go.

Possible, but why would AC continue this cost-cutting agreement and take Jazz pilots when they are on a B scale, being the lowest paid regional pilots around? Once everyone is retired or moved on, start to focus on SKY/GGN and remove their top earners as well. After this, it wouldn't be so farfetched that the game changes again and the low paid Jazz pilots are stuck in about 10 years.

Feel free to apply, maybe it works out, but I don't want my future hanging in a game of chess between CEOs. If I was interested, I would rather hope for 20% OTS and in the meantime make a respectable wage with greater job security.

[AlphaOne]

It's going to be funny when all the PMA's who have an ATPL have been exhausted, and AC has to back pedal and up the OTS hiring since the only copilots left at Jazz came right out of college (because those were the only people willing to work for the new wage), with barely any pic time and aren't able to get their A's. That's provided, however, AC doesn't change their mins to IATRA!

[Mart]

I Don't know if this as been answered yet but for the pilot who decide to flowtrough to AC, are they going to AC or Rouge?

[rudder]

I Don't know if this as been answered yet but for the pilot who decide to flowtrough to AC, are they going to AC or Rouge?

For the purposes of the AC pilot group, they are the same thing. New-hires are assigned to unbid vacancies wherever they are in the AC or Rouge system. Differences in wages and work rules for Rouge are covered via an LOU that forms part of the ACPA collective agreement.

[BingBong]

It's going to be funny when all the PMA's who have an ATPL have been exhausted, and AC has to back pedal and up the OTS hiring since the only copilots left at Jazz came right out of college (because those were the only people willing to work for the new wage), with barely any pic time and aren't able to get their A's. That's provided, however, AC doesn't change their mins to IATRA!

I've been at jazz for 5 years...probably around the 1100 mark. I dont expect (barring any 9/11, SARS outbreaks) to get a course (barring passing the interview) for at least 3-5 years. With the ATPL rules changing to 1:1, you don't think 5 years is enough time to get an ATPL?? Lots of time my friend. I think in 2014 I flew around 800 hrs. 5 years is SFA.

Enjoy

[Krimson]

Any final word if new hires are getting put on the PML?

[countryhick]

New hires will be included with the other regionals on a "per capita" ratio, or something, to be decided by AC once the original list is exhausted.

[aV1aTOr]

According to AC, the PML list is closed. As far as the current deal goes, no more names will be added to the list.

[Krimson]

What's the final name count on the PML? How many pilots does Jazz have on the roster?

[flyer 1492]

Not sure of the final number, rumor is around 725-750. Total number of pilots is 1350, with 16 headed over to AC on March 16.

Flyer

[AllClutch]

714

[Krimson]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

[proper]

That's the plan. 2-3 years in the right seat. Go skipper then off to AC via the PML 2.0

[fish4life]

Why would Air Canada ever have a PML 2.0 ? They got what they needed cheaper new labour and cut off the expensive stuff on the top. Think about it