Sky Regional Contracting out work

[justwork]

Rudder,

Like I said, I was just throwing a guess out there. I'll reiterate that our current dispatch has been working fine and continues to improve. The reason we will go with AC may be because its cheaper, maybe more robust, maybe easier, or maybe more efficient, it is However NOT because we are unable to provide type A dispatch for ourself. Our customer is happy with the service we provide.

I can't think of another operator who does something similar, but that is not a bad thing. Maybe this will become more common place, I don't know yet.

[Takeoff OK]

...I can't think of another operator who does something similar, but that is not a bad thing. Maybe this will become more common place, I don't know yet.

Ahem...

Republic Airlines
Chautauqua
Shuttle America
Skywest
GoJet
Compass
Air Wisconsin
Mesa
Envoy
Encore
ACA
American Eagle
Jazz
Trans States
ExpressJet

...and some that I can't think of right now.

This is what you are; all pros and cons considered. If you don't understand this, then you are in for a rude awakening somewhere down the road. The future is bleak for anyone getting into aviation now.

Oh, and let's not forget about the Dearly Departed Comair. They fought the good fight, won (the only feeder to ever successfully strike and prevail), and subsequently got the sh*t kicked out of them (because Mother Delta never forgives nor forgets) shortly before being put down for good. Lesson to be learned? You have no long-term intrinsic value to that which you feed. Keep your expectations as low as possible, and you'll stick around long enough to be betrayed in the end. There is no other reality to consider. It, just simply, is what it is.

If your slant on the current situation is that AC taking over your dispatch means that somehow you are more valuable to them, then give your head a shake. It does not. Sky has no value beyond that which AC can capitalize on right now. Likely, they found synergy issues with your dispatch, and have temporarily taken over to remove them. This will change again. You are not special. You are just the first red-headed step-child on the scene that your father-in-law has decided to dote on. It will not last.

For those that can: Take your first mainline ticket out, as soon as it shows up, regardless of who it is. The regionals are a stepping stone if you stay a short time, and a path to career stagnation, or even destruction, if you stay too long.

[Art Garfunkel]

So what is the fix? Takeoff has it pretty accurate. I know you Jazz guys are high on ALPA but what has ALPA done or doing to fix this? I know ALPA is more than just wage and working conditions and have played instrumental roles in many safety improvements. However, what they let happen to Comair was inexcusable.

I am a member of the CPPC and thought that this would truly be an answer to a great deal of our problems and issues at the regional level. However with 10 year agreements in place with ALPA and ACPA I doubt the college will grow to the level it needs. Any idea of a national regional association for pilots will also be in doubt due to the length of these agreements. You have to hand it to CR and GS for establishing an American style (and level) of regional airlines. Encore started it with their advertised 80 percent lower wages and Air Canada answered it with Sky.

Regional flying sucks. You work the hardest for the lowest pay. You are often flying just as many passengers in one day as a mainline pilot (higher yielding pax too) but paid a fraction of the pay. So why the lower pay?

Regional pilots are not just Metro/beech/dash pilots anymore. The regional aircraft today are just as sophisticated as any mainline bird. 4 hour missions are not out of the question, however mostly utilized on shorter, higher density routes requiring 150 percent concentration all the time. Again only paid half.

We need help. The rift between regional pilots against each other and regional pilots against mainline pilots needs to end. Problem is, for mainline pilots to maintain higher WACON regional pilots need to make lower. At least that has been the belief for the last 30 years. We need help to change. Any ideas?

[upanickel]

Maybe AC has more experience dispatching the embraers than sky?
Also, if you are already dispatching the 190s, why wouldn't you get the 175s dispatching back on the property? That's double the dispatch team for essentially the same airplane.

If you're already OPERATING the 190s, why wouldn't you get the 175 operation back on the property too?

[aerodude]

If you're already OPERATING the 190s, why wouldn't you get the 175 operation back on the property too?

Cause it costs 3 times more to operate if operating with mainline OC.

[rooster]

AC has provided many other services to SKY in order to incept and sustain the 175 operation so this should come as no surprise. SKY is a shell company. Likely the precursor to the termination of the Q400 YTZ operation and a possible transfer of the 5 SKY Q400's to Jazz. I do not see AC dispatch in the Q400 business.

+1

From what I hear YTZ operations are nearing the end, just too expensive. Q400's won't last too long at SKV. Now that Jazz is cheaper to operate, we'll get those Q's for sure. Get ready to be below me in seniority!! Thank god this circus didn't last too long. I really hope none of Sky pilots that gets laid off get hired by AC. Just wouldn't be fair considering they lowered the standard.

Karma is a real prick ain't it?

Umm, wasn't it jazz that just lowered the standard? I don't think it's karma that's the prick here...

[Takeoff OK]

...Umm, wasn't it jazz that just lowered the standard? I don't think it's karma that's the prick here...

You know, there's no nice way of saying this, so I'll just say it: That is utter stupidity. If you guys want to sit and blame each other for lowering the bar, feel free. But it doesn't even come close to the point.

The blame for "lowering the bar" here in Canada lies heavily on two parties' shoulders:

1) The previous ACPA MEC, that allowed the conditional creation of Sky in the first place, which was only supposed to happen if a TA was reached by May (I think) of the following year. Of course, they knew that Sky would be a new form of eating their young, but they were terrified of losing their pensions and pay scales, among other things. Unfortunately, once AC was given a partial green light on Sky they started running with it, because once something starts it is much more difficult to stop.

2) Stephen Harper's camp, which totally railroaded (an ironic term, if you get the meaning -- which I'm sure only a very few will) ACPA during the last negots. Federally-mandated binding arbitration as a result of a supposed strike that didn't exist effectively castrated the AC pilot group, removing all of their negotiating power. This is why the 175s are where they are now. (Why any airline pilot ever votes Conservative totally escapes me.)

So that's why we are where we are. Blaming a neophyte for accepting crappy pay to fly for a living is absolutely ridiculous. Every one of us here would have done the same thing at that point in our nascent careers, and many have. If you say you wouldn't, you are full of sh*t.

The question of lowering the bar becomes more important when your turn at negotiations comes up. If you are not willing to vote NO on not only the first, but all subsequent TAs that come your way without significant WAWCON increases, and then not only vote to strike but also actually be willing to join the line, then you are part of the problem. Likely at Jazz, they saw the writing on the wall and knew that they were facing massive reductions if they did not give up some rope. The flow agreement obviously sweetened the deal, but it was a total win-win for AC, because they really could not care less where the newhires come from. The classes would be filled either way. AC gave nothing for something. From the Jazz pilot point of view, it was an irresistible offer; a way out and up. But it is also a shell game, because there are many things that can happen with the industry over the next decade. Flow agreements end up working probably no more than half the time, when everything is said and done. So, anyway, that is the deal Jazz accepted. Whether or not this was wise is to be determined, but I still see many of them getting f*cked over in the end.

Now it remains to be seen what Sky will do when their turn comes along. I have very very low expectations.

[rudder]

Like I said, I was just throwing a guess out there. I'll reiterate that our current dispatch has been working fine and continues to improve. The reason we will go with AC may be because its cheaper, maybe more robust, maybe easier, or maybe more efficient, it is However NOT because we are unable to provide type A dispatch for ourself.

There is other information circulating out there but not yet in the public domain. Perhaps we will hear more. Perhaps not. Obviously nothing has been released internally.

If an operation the size of Skyregional will no longer be dispatching its own flights the reason is likely self explanatory.

[justwork]

Like I said, I was just throwing a guess out there. I'll reiterate that our current dispatch has been working fine and continues to improve. The reason we will go with AC may be because its cheaper, maybe more robust, maybe easier, or maybe more efficient, it is However NOT because we are unable to provide type A dispatch for ourself.

There is other information circulating out there but not yet in the public domain. Perhaps we will hear more. Perhaps not. Obviously nothing has been released internally.

If an operation the size of Skyregional will no longer be dispatching its own flights the reason is likely self explanatory.

So you heard something from someone, who's brother knows someone who actually knows nothing? You'll have to explain it to me because I don't understand, but I'm just a sky regional captain so I must be thick.

[concerned]

First I would like to say that it was good news that there was no fatalities in the incident in YHZ with the AC flight on Saturday night.
But maybe AC and Sky Regional should rethink there decision to contract out Sky Regional's dispatch to AC. Just before the AC accident Sky Regionals flight into YHZ diverted to YQM due to weather conditions, that sounds to me that the crew and dispatch were working well together and the right decision was made, what happened at AC?
What is more important safety or money?, it seems like they are losing out on both of these.
Maybe AC should look at contracting there dispatch out to Sky Regional!

[mbav8r]

Concerned, with all due respect you couldn't possibly know why SR diverted or proceeded to what was likely their alternate. Perhaps they didn't have the fuel to hold until the weather improved enough for an attempt. It's has been stated regarding AC they held for a bit, implying they had fuel for that purpose. For all anyone knows, Sky dispatch was only informed of the diversion to Moncton after the fact, or maybe they did hold but did get a window for an attempt.
Suggesting dispatch was somehow involved in pressuring the pilots to stick around and attempt a risky landing is ignorant at the very least, also disrespectful to both the pilots and dispatch. We don't make our decisions based on dispatch wanting us too!

[concerned]

Suggesting dispatch was somehow involved in pressuring the pilots to stick around and attempt a risky landing is ignorant at the very least, also disrespectful to both the pilots and dispatch. We don't make our decisions based on dispatch wanting us too!

I am not suggesting that at all, what I am suggesting is that any airline that has its own dispatch would have a better level of service and concern for there own flights over a contracted out organization. Not that this is what was involved here, but usually dispatchers are not looking at the commercial side of the operation but at the safety side of the situation, the companies normally have a commercial operations group that want the flights to operate, it is then up to the dispatcher to say, yes it can operate or no it can't. Then the Captain is brought into the scenario and if it is not to operate then that's it, but if they are then asked to do something that the Captain does not feel it is safe to do then he/she has the final decision on whether to operate or not. This is the way it is set up in the CAR's to prevent crew and dispatchers from being forced into having to do something that is not safe, and not having the decisions to operate being made by someone that's only concern is the commercial side of it.
My comments were not meant to insinuate any wrong doing by the crew or the dispatcher for not doing there job, but at the main thought of this thread and that Sky Regional is contracting out its dispatch to another company and not doing it themselves, can you name one other company in this country that operates a fleet of more than 20 aircraft in a 705 environment and does not exercise operational control over its own aircraft, but contracts it out, there is a reason for not doing it. I have worked as a dispatcher for nearly 40 years and take pride in doing my job well my main concern is the flights that I am responsible for and work hard at doing the best for each and every one of them. It is a slippery slope that is being attempted and the thought of thinking that you are going to save a buck at the expense of the concern that is put into the work being done by a companies own personnel is wrong.
Yes I am concerned

[mbav8r]

Concerned, you should read your post again and tell me you weren't implying anything, especially the last sentence.