Why so little interest in tailwheel flying?

[Cat Driver]

Quote:
We fly one minute circuits left hand, right hand repeated for half hour lessons.

However they do not get to leave the ground until they can control the machine on the ground.

First they must be competent in recovery from controlled ground loops at taxi speed.

Then they must demonstrate they can repeatedly S turn down the center line with the tail in the air, back and forth down the runway.

Then they can go flying.

Your curriculum sounds very challenging. My training units are too insurance shy to try something like this!

That does not make sense, proper training lowers the accident rate and lower accident payouts lowers the cost of insurance.

What is there about my method of training that would make any training business feel uneasy about?

[iflyforpie]

I think the problem is that it presents a very unconventional method of training... one that is incompatible with a busy training airfield with a tower and 7 planes doing Prince Edward Island sized circuits... and hour building instructors and money grabbing FTUs who are interested in you purchasing the most dual hours possible.

When I did my float endorsement... the first lesson didn't even involve flying... it was launching and docking (good luck going through 112 items on the typical FTU checklist when you are drifting towards pilings ), displacement taxi, sailing, plowing, step taxi, etc etc... Any time you are learning to fly an aircraft where the primary difference is how it behaves on the ground... you should spend most of your time there.... rather than burning off 6-8 minutes in a circuit for 30 seconds of actual learning and experience.

At my home airport... we are perfectly set up to do lessons like Cat Driver suggests.. no tower, minimal traffic except for summer afternoons and sunny weekends, mostly rural/industrial areas surrounding, and I work for the airport operator. Even if the airport is too busy, we have two other airfields within 15 minutes of flying that are suitable for the same thing. We also have lakes suitable for ski and float flying, gravel bars, and some challenging mountain airstrips.

Also.... since my summers are pretty much a write off... unless Cat Driver has other plans I'd rather have the plane rented for the whole summer for solo time building. Go down to California or Florida, head across Canada, go up the Alaska Highway or to the NWT with a stack of resumes and kill two birds with one stone....

You probably aren't going to find many opportunities like that in Canada...

[FenderManDan]

I have only about 4 hours tail wheel time and I am interested in more. My "New year resolution" of sort is to do bunch of tail wheel this Spring/Summer.

Sorry Cat, I would not be able to do J3. I tried once and it was very uncomfortable for my 6'4 frame. I am all legs. I don't know if they make them different but this one at 3point aviator was too small for me from both seats.

I will try this Spring to rent a Super Cub with Dennis at CZBA, this one seems to have better setup.

[Cat Driver]

I will try this Spring to rent a Super Cub with Dennis at CZBA, this one seems to have better setup.

The airplane Iflyforpie and I own was a Super Cub.....when we started rebuilding it...so if you fit a Super Cub you will fit it.

[cplanedriver]

Cat
Have a safe trip, sorry to hear about a death in your family....
As for big men in small airplanes, any model Citabria has lots of room...
Owned my 7GCBC for 15 years, was very comfortable with good heat in winter too...
Gary

[Cat Driver]

Cat
Have a safe trip, sorry to hear about a death in your family....
As for big men in small airplanes, any model Citabria has lots of room...
Owned my 7GCBC for 15 years, was very comfortable with good heat in winter too...
Gary

Thanks>>

I agree the Citabria has more room than any Cub and would make an excellent choice for this type of business.

I did not particularly like the Super Decathalon's gear as it was just to soft for wheel landing training and it is way over priced for this kind of use.

We had a Super Decathalon in the company I flew with in the air show business but I did not fly it much.

[Cat Driver]

Also.... since my summers are pretty much a write off... unless Cat Driver has other plans I'd rather have the plane rented for the whole summer for solo time building. Go down to California or Florida, head across Canada, go up the Alaska Highway or to the NWT with a stack of resumes and kill two birds with one stone....

See....How can you beat a deal like that??

Choose the right flying partner and one sleeping bag and life just does not get better.

[adampenner]

We find a lot of interest in tailwheel airplanes as we operate 5 tailwheel airplanes, out of 30 trikes.

3, Citabria Aurora 7ECA Metal winged, full gyro panel, gps/vor, g-meter. Also a PA-18-150, and a S2B

The 7ECA do a lot of training for the RPP, PPL, CPL, Instructor ratings, and a good number of tailwheel checkouts. Checkout time varies a lot depending on experience, skill, and currency. Some pilots are ready to go solo in 2 hours, some take 10+ hours, but on average it's 6-7 hours. The winds play a big affect of course, and we teach to the point where students have good stall landings, and be good enough to recover from a bounced wheel landing with a stall landing. It's always interesting to see that it generally takes no more time to do a PPL/RPP in the Citabria then it does a 152 when starting from zero.

So if you are tired of talking/typing about flying tailwheels, then you are more then welcome to come on out! We'll pick you up from the Winnipeg airport, and you can stay in our accommodations on the airport. Usually after 2 days you can call yourself a tailwheel pilot! We also have a free online taildragger/aerobatic course to help you prepare and get you addicted.
http://pilottraining.ca/store/catalog.php?item=45

Adam
Harv's Air http://www.harvsair.com

[Cat Driver]

It's always interesting to see that it generally takes no more time to do a PPL/RPP in the Citabria then it does a 152 when starting from zero.

Exactly, and the cost of operating the airplanes is the same, the only real difference is the pilot trained on the tail wheel airplane has better control of the airplane directionally on the ground.

The insurance issue is really simple, a properly trained pilot who learns on a tail wheel airplane is a lower risk of take off and landing accidents so logic should dictate the insurance for tail wheel pilots should be cheaper.

So if you are tired of talking/typing about flying tailwheels, then you are more then welcome to come on out! We'll pick you up from the Winnipeg airport, and you can stay in our accommodations on the airport. Usually after 2 days you can call yourself a tailwheel pilot! We also have a free online taildragger/aerobatic course to help you prepare and get you addicted.
http://pilottraining.ca/store/catalog.php?item=45

Adam
Harv's Air http://www.harvsair.com

I'll second that.

[tractor driver]

Yes, getting the training is always good. It's been quite a while since the instructing days, but I plan to renew my class 1 with Adam this year on the Citabria. I have sent pilots to Steinbach who had no tail wheel time, and the school had them in shape for moving into the 802 in short order. Training on our tail draggers is always a pleasure, partly from the interest of the pilots in "something new". - amusing - And partly from the enhanced skills from "waking up" their feet. I hope you get something together . to add to the availability. It would be nice to see the conventional gear be considered a little more main stream.

g

[jodirueger]

That is a very valid question, because there is so much value to tailwheel training. It's nice to see someone else asking it.

The west coast of Canada has done well at making tailwheel training more accessible, I am fortunate enough to be an instructor on one such tailwheel. Students see it every day but they aren't sure why they should be flying it, and schools aren't pushing it enough. The tailwheel trainer we have is a Citabria, most students on the 152 & 172s will never see proper spin training and develop substandard stick and rudder skills. It shows in the flying of the students who have tailwheel training in terms of basic flying skill.

Currently working on a project to promote tailwheel training to tricycle students, feedback and suggestions welcome. I have successfully convince the CFI to allow me to conduct fam flights in the 7ECA for the first time.

[fleet16b]

I have only about 4 hours tail wheel time and I am interested in more. My "New year resolution" of sort is to do bunch of tail wheel this Spring/Summer.

Sorry Cat, I would not be able to do J3. I tried once and it was very uncomfortable for my 6'4 frame. I am all legs. I don't know if they make them different but this one at 3point aviator was too small for me from both seats.

I will try this Spring to rent a Super Cub with Dennis at CZBA, this one seems to have better setup.

3point now has two Decathalons

[FAF]

I teach on a bunch of different types including a 7ECA, it's funny most people are concerned about how much more it is per hour, funny thing though, between me and the other instructors on the plane we find our tailwheel guys average completion time is quite a bit less, enough to offset the training costs, plus they score higher on their flight tests.

I encourage any pilots that have never flown the tailwheel to do so, suck up your ego for the first 2 hours where the plane will spank every bad habit out of you. You'll hop back into your auto lander and realize how much safer and more comfortable you are.

One of my only regrets in flying is not doing my PPL in one. I waited after my license to find out what my feet were for. Rudder in straight and level flight, WHAT? I remember thinking my instructor was joking around.

[magic wand]

What is the heaviest or biggest, single engine, tailwheel aircraft.
I assume the "Otter"

[photofly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2
MTOW 12,000lbs

Otter: 8,000lbs

[bigsky]

What is the heaviest or biggest, single engine, tailwheel aircraft.
I assume the "Otter"

I fly a single tail-dragger that hs a MTOW of 16,000.
I have flown it on wheels and floats, but have yet to try it on skiis.

[PilotDAR]

we find our tailwheel guys average completion time is quite a bit less, enough to offset the training costs, plus they score higher on their flight test

What a worthwhile observation - learners take note....

[Shiny Side Up]

What is the heaviest or biggest, single engine, tailwheel aircraft.
I assume the "Otter"

I always assumed it was a Skyraider, that still flies that is. Largest I think goes to the Martin Mauler.

[iflyforpie]

C-46 on one engine.

[I_Drive_Planes]

edit: Perhaps I should read the preceding posts more closely.

[PilotDAR]

single tail-dragger that hs a MTOW of 16,000.
I have flown it on wheels and floats

Fire Cat/Air Tractor?

I was thinking Avenger, but the floats threw me. I once pulled up beside a Grumman Guardian - that was big!