Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

[cncpc]

I'm not implying the report isn't true, but I wouldn't support the quick conclusion without some tangible evidence.

Let me do that for you then.

THE REPORT ISN'T TRUE.

[pianokeys]

Anyways, back on topic here. This is a horrible accident, truly disgusting. Regardless of FA size and weight, I think that having the extra person in the flight deck can act as a deterrent. Lots of airlines in the US have this as a policy, one-out-one-in.

Your theory has zero substance. Where's your evidence that the locked door has prevented just ONE hijacking? Just ONE.
Meanwhile, there have been over 500 deaths, due DIRECTLY to locked cockpit doors.
The 747 that crashed in Scotland, due to a bomb on board was well before the locked cockpit door era.
Your serve.
Illya

Heres just one recent example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_Airways_Flight_191

It seems like this new fangled cockpit door is six of one and a half dozen of another. Theres instances where its did its job and there are instances where its thwarted attempts at saving the plane.

Heres an incident where the cockpit door restricted someone from saving the aircraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozamb ... Flight_470

[lostaviator]

Those poor dash classic / crj and other 1 FA certified aircraft... Guess the timies cup is going to have to do. Unless this also ends the era of 1 FA flights. Wait that would cost money.

[Learning2Fly]

Thanks CNC, I'm always open to a rational debate, but it seems people cannot explain the obvious and just want to resort to name calling.

That said, I'm very surprised that after a day and a half, these ambitious agencies have recovered the boxes, opened the cases, download the data, studied the data, and have done EXTENSIVE research on the Co-Pilot's life to conclude that he was suicidal.

You would think that would take weeks, or at least days to question family, friends, co-workers, employers, etc. In my opnion,
"they" were too quick to point blame.

Damn, it takes about a week just to get a vacation request approved where I work.

[Mig29]

pianokeys,

you are quick to dismiss any possibility of something happening other then what big news media outlets reported? So anyone who brings up his/her theory or even some evidence that something else occurred on that tragic day is a looney tune basically?

If anything has though me about the 9/11 is not to take anything for granted, and that means especially the news. So when the CVR report is released literally "the next day" after this A320 went down, I have to stop and ask my self - isn't this too soon?? I mean, the MH17 CVR/FDRs have been sent to Amsterdam in July, 2014 and no OFFICIAL report yet has been released by the investigators? WHY???

Back on the subject...the "letter by the pilots" is interesting. Not long ago I had a station manager in Europe ask me if it was ok to get a job on the Dornier jet (he had barely 500hrs). But he must pay something like 25,000eur for training to secure the job! I said to him to go look for another option.

[armchair]

Something doesn't jibe with this Lubitz character... a young F.O. full of piss and vinegar on a A320 with less than 1000 hours, with no history.... clean german kid wanted to be a pilot all his life, landed a dream job under age 30. Not your typical murder-suicidal pilot with a lifelong laundry list of beefs with society... For the sake of argument, did the prosecutor rule out those (far-fetched I admit... but possible) scenarios:

1. Lubitz could have been assassinated before flight and impersonated ... we seen that in a movie or two... Suicidal impersonator pretends to be Lubitz, goes on suicidal flight , rest we know... (ie can they really prove it was Lubitz in the co-pilot seat?)

or..

2. all assume there was only one person, Lubitz, in cockpit. Who knows for sure if there was not a second person - intruder, hijacker, terrorist - who knocked pilot out and flew A320 into the ground?


I know those are way out there far-fetched scenarios, but not impossible. I for one have a hard time accepting carte blanche that Lubitz was this mass murdering depressed FO.

[pianokeys]

pianokeys,
you are quick to dismiss and possibility of something happening other then what big news media outlets reported? So anyone who brings up his/her theory or even some evidence that something else occurred on that tragic day is a looney tune basically?

If anything has though me about the 9/11 is not to take anything for granted, and that means even the news. So when the CVR report is released literally "the next day" after the A320 went down, I have to stop and ask my self isn't this too soon. I mean, the MH17 CVR/FDRs have been sent to Amsterdam in July, 2014 and no OFFICIAL report has been released by the investigators? WHY???

I agree, it is very suspicious that this huge piece of evidence, the CVR, was essentially released almost as fast as it was found. Especially when you compare it to other investigations that take years of combing and nitpicking the data. Although this flight that crashed in Africa with similar circumstancesa few years ago didn't take too long to publish a preliminary report suggesting the pilot was at fault.

As for MH17, well, as far as I am concerned there, no one wants to point fingers at anyone, make eye contact, or even breathe in the direction of which parties are responsible partially because it will lead to a major war.

Usually I don't debate 9/11 because no matter which side of the argument you're on, you'll never want to openly see the other side. But, heres my take. We all know about Occams razor, right? The theory that the simplest and easiest explanation is usually the true reason? What seems more logical here, a bunch of pissed off Arabs hijack some planes and fly them into some buildings, the same pissed off Arabs who were once apart of the Mujahideen who was funded and backed by the US, all to later be betrayed by the US. The same group of Arabs who made countless other attacks against US Embassies, warships, and an attack on the WTCs in 1993. OR its a major US-Saudi government plan and cover up that involves hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have yet to speak up and tell the truth mind you, all done to increase the governments ability to spy on its citizens and create insane legislature and also to turn around an invade Iraq.

Chances are if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, its a duck.

[Learning2Fly]

[youtube]watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

If I wanted into this cockpit, even if my co-pilot "locks" the door, am I able to enter the emergency code, and over-ride the lock after 30 seconds of waiting?

[FICU]

[youtube]watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

If I wanted into this cockpit, even if my co-pilot "locks" the door, am I able to enter the emergency code, and over-ride the lock after 30 seconds of waiting?

As long as the pilot inside doesn't lock out the keypad after the code is entered.

Don't know why the media aviation "experts" haven't discussed the deadbolt that can be locked from the inside which renders the electronic keypad useless.

One pilot goes out to use the lav other pilot locks the deadbolt and the cockpit is secured... easy peasy.

[sparky99]

If I remember correctly there are two pressure sensors on the overhead panel that automatically unlock the cockpit door if there's a rapid decompression. We used to test this function during HMV checks. If all else failed, I suppose one could pop a cabin door in last attempt to gain entry to the cockpit.

[bcflyer]

New cockpit policy for Air Canada

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/new-cock ... -1.2298727

It's actually now mandated for every Canadian airline. Another knee jerk reaction by the Ratt. Our illustrious transport minister who doesn't have a clue what she is doing. Having a F/A in the F/D while the other pilot is using the bathroom won't make one shred of difference. There will be absolutely NOTHING they will be able to do against a person determined to crash the plane. Add in the 1-50 rule and you will now have entire cabins of aircraft completely unattended.

I'm sure they will now increase preflight screening of flight crew as well thinking that taking away our coffee will somehow make the flight safer. Anyone with half a brain and an inkling of what really goes on in the industry knows it won't make a difference. What they (Catsa and their minions) don't seem to understand is that as flight crew we are already on the other side of the locked door. Taking away someone's leatherman won't stop them from taking control of the aircraft if they really want to.

[cncpc]

Thanks CNC, I'm always open to a rational debate, but it seems people cannot explain the obvious and just want to resort to name calling.

That said, I'm very surprised that after a day and a half, these ambitious agencies have recovered the boxes, opened the cases, download the data, studied the data, and have done EXTENSIVE research on the Co-Pilot's life to conclude that he was suicidal.

You would think that would take weeks, or at least days to question family, friends, co-workers, employers, etc. In my opnion,
"they" were too quick to point blame.

Damn, it takes about a week just to get a vacation request approved where I work.

I agree with you on the unseemly haste on this one.

[CpnCrunch]

New cockpit policy for Air Canada

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/new-cock ... -1.2298727

It's actually now mandated for every Canadian airline. Another knee jerk reaction by the Ratt. Our illustrious transport minister who doesn't have a clue what she is doing. Having a F/A in the F/D while the other pilot is using the bathroom won't make one shred of difference. There will be absolutely NOTHING they will be able to do against a person determined to crash the plane. Add in the 1-50 rule and you will now have entire cabins of aircraft completely unattended.

I'm sure they will now increase preflight screening of flight crew as well thinking that taking away our coffee will somehow make the flight safer. Anyone with half a brain and an inkling of what really goes on in the industry knows it won't make a difference. What they (Catsa and their minions) don't seem to understand is that as flight crew we are already on the other side of the locked door. Taking away someone's leatherman won't stop them from taking control of the aircraft if they really want to.

Actually, it seems like a very sensible idea, and I'm kind of shocked that it wasn't already standard practice in Canada. These people aren't "determined to crash the plane". They are suicidally depressed -- big difference.

[FICU]

Actually, it seems like a very sensible idea, and I'm kind of shocked that it wasn't already standard practice in Canada.

Risk management. Now the mighty government feels there is too great of a perceived risk by the flying public and they want them to feel safe.

In our -300 combi we will now have our own personal F/A ride jump with us because the cargo area can't be accessed from the pax compartment in flight. How much will that cost the company long term?

What about ferry and re-positioning flights, test flights... a 3rd crew member will have to be on board now... more money.

[co-joe]

When the co-joe's mom looks at the airport security video of her son going through security and boarding the plane and definitively says "yeah that's him" I'll believe he was actually at the controls and not wearing concrete galoshes. Throw in his DNA at the scene too.

[pianokeys]

It seems like airlines are divided on the one-out-one-in rule. A friend of mine flies in the US for a RJ operator and they require an FA to come in when you leave to take a dump. The new PF has to get the O2 mask ready just incase. Thats a little extreme, but you've got ten seconds, tops, maybe, of consciousness at that altitude. I still think having an FA come in and replace the outgoing pilot is a good idea. Its knee jerk that everyone will be doing it now but its kinda surprising that it hasn't already been mandated across the board.

[armchair]

Thanks CNC, I'm always open to a rational debate, but it seems people cannot explain the obvious and just want to resort to name calling.

That said, I'm very surprised that after a day and a half, these ambitious agencies have recovered the boxes, opened the cases, download the data, studied the data, and have done EXTENSIVE research on the Co-Pilot's life to conclude that he was suicidal.

You would think that would take weeks, or at least days to question family, friends, co-workers, employers, etc. In my opnion,
"they" were too quick to point blame.

Damn, it takes about a week just to get a vacation request approved where I work.

I agree with you on the unseemly haste on this one.

Ya think??? !!! There are precedents to such haste.... remember a little place called Gander?

[photofly]

I don't think the haste is unseemly. The entire aviation industry was waiting to find out what might be wrong with the A320. Not to mention the passengers' families. No way should the investigators wait a day longer than needed to release some preliminary results.

[flyinthebug]

I don't think the haste is unseemly. The entire aviation industry was waiting to find out what might be wrong with the A320. Not to mention the passengers' families. No way should the investigators wait a day longer than needed to release some preliminary results.

Well said, and agreed.

We complain because it takes too long to get a report in Canada...and when we get preliminary reports in a short and reasonable time, we still complain.

Gotta love pilots.

[bizjets101]

It was neither Lufthansa officials or French Govt. who came forward with the CVR etc., it was a New York Times reporter who broke this story - everyone else was just playing catchup today.

Had it not been for the reporter - much of this investigation might not yet been known to us at this time.

[floydfrank]

I'm not implying the report isn't true, but I wouldn't support the quick conclusion without some tangible evidence.

Let me do that for you then.

THE REPORT ISN'T TRUE.

Good calls, particularly re 18,000'. There is a rush to judgement going on, I don't buy it. BUT, the msm has spoken, and no one is allowed to challenge the narrative.

[cncpc]

A friend of mine flies in the US for a RJ operator and they require an FA to come in when you leave to take a dump. The new PF has to get the O2 mask ready just incase. Thats a little extreme, but you've got ten seconds, tops, maybe, of consciousness at that altitude.

Just in case what? The toilet door isn't sealed?

[Eric Janson]

Mode S Enhanced Surveillance

https://www.eurocontrol.int/articles/mo ... l-overview

This will back up what selection(s) were made on the altitude selector.

[Learning2Fly]

Wow, this thread has derailed quickly. Learning2fly, I would suggest you start your own thread regarding 9/11 since you are so adamant on defending your view. Can we leave this one for its purpose?

That's not necessary, but if I started a new thread a more appropriate title would be, "Incompetent Media and Erroneous Reports".

It's not about defending my view, but rather facing facts which ultimately reveal the issue. As with this story, many holes and oddities.

Bizjets101 revealed that this information was leaked via a news source, and not the investigative agency. Knowing how shoddy the media
has been over the decades, can we really trust this preliminary info?

I'm more interested in the FD door security; as per video it appears the door can be opened using the emergency code regardless of switch position.
FICU states, that I've misinterpreted this function? I don't know FICU's qualifications, but I'm hoping he's an A320 tech/pilot and his words can be
taken as gold. I'm the type that would love one of the forum members to confirm this statement just to be certain.

On the radio this morning I heard rumours/suggestions that pilots, FA's, and possibly passengers may require "emotional screening" in the future.
For real? There was also speculation that government agencies would be allowed to probe your personal life to ensure you're not a threat to the
flight before boarding.

Can you imagine that as a pilot, FA, or passenger that you will be subject to personal scrutiny as par for the course? Maybe you will be required to
give up your cell phone, laptop, or visit a therapist periodically. These are the types of freedoms that we lose as a result of misinformation, and
governments taking advantage of adverse events.

It's a downward trend that has been going on for decades, and a majority of the general population will eat this s**t up, and not even question it.
Sadly when these tragic events take place most people instantly think terrorism, ISIS, and now suicidal pilot is the buzz term. When is the last time
the media reported mechanical failures of an aircraft? Do you think for a second that 'if' this crash was a result of a manufacturing defect that you'd
hear about it on CNN, FOX, or CBC? Only if it was caught BEFORE the plane left the gate, and people survived.

[photofly]

When is the last time the media reported mechanical failures of an aircraft? Do you think for a second that 'if' this crash was a result of a manufacturing defect that you'd hear about it on CNN, FOX, or CBC?

Er... you bet.

But when was the last time a mechanical defect definitively brought down an airliner?

Besides, the copilot is dead, legally you can say what you like about him with impunity. Aircraft manufacturers have deep pockets and lots of lawyers so you have to be a bit more certain.

Bizjets101 revealed that this information was leaked via a news source, and not the investigative agency. Knowing how shoddy the media has been over the decades, can we really trust this preliminary info?

Yes, you can trust it. The NYT got hold of it first, but it's coming directly from the Marseille prosecutor, quoted by name.

Horses, not zebras.