Amphib systems refresher

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PilotDAR
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Amphib systems refresher

Post by PilotDAR »

We had some posts about understanding amphibian systems, and trouble shooting systems. So let's share what we know, and how we'd do it right...

We know that we sometimes have an advantage, as with the gear all the way one way, or the other, we can pick our surface, and probably get the plane down with no damage. The problems begin when the gear is part up and part down, or its position cannot be confirmed. Then a land landing is the only choice. I've done it one side up, the other side down twice - both on ice - it worked.

My amphibian is happily rather trouble free in design, though not simple to operate. it's all mechanical, though three separate controls to be moved to select and lock gear position as desired. And a forth in the water. The tail wheel locks down on gravity, and there is no indication. It may not lock down, if you have dragged it through the weeds :shock: . The mains are extended by one lever, and locked by another. So you can get them down, but forget to lock them. They'll collapse backward when you touch the brakes. It was done in Norway a few years back to a friend's Teal. Not serious, but embarrassing, and you'll need a lift.

My other charge these days is on Aerocets, which so far have been excellent. I've practiced on jacks, about 220 pumps of the hand pump to go either way. So far, the electric pump has done the job. It is a bit awkward to check the hydraulic level back in the tail boom though, as there is an AHRS one must pass to get there. I have trained the owner, if in doubt, head for a grass runway first, or pavement - but not the water.

I used to fly EDOs. One with an engine driven hydraulic pump, the other hand pump only. In both cases, flying in the very cold, the grease on the mainwheel slides would get so stiff, that they would not slide. The engine driven pump system would bypass, so the gear was frozen where it was - one up, one part way down. Ironically, those same floats were moved to a different plane, but with manual only. The problem was the high pressure relief was left in the system, so again, you could hand pump for all your were worth, but it would just bypass, and the gear was still frozen. One up, one down again - on the ice of Lake Simcoe. If the grommets on the EDO nosewheel cables pop out, you can flood the front float compartments, if you're not careful.

The PKs worked fine - if the plane could lift them! The Bristols seemed to work well, but it was funny seeing the nosewheel struts standing straight up! The Wiplines were great, other than the dual main wheels enabled the failure of one brake to blow all the brake fluid for the remaining brake out, so no brake - a few 359 degree turns taxiing in! I wonder about a restrictor in the T of the brake line, to allow a little bit of braking for a few attempts.

Lakes have their own interesting characteristics. Be sure the nosewheel is centered before you retract it. Easy after a runway takeoff, not so easy if you had taxiied into the water before takeoff...

Understand your system, and have a plan. Unfortunately, for my experience, many float amphibian systems can fail in a way which will not allow much benefit from the emergency extension systems.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Shiny Side Up »

The Wiplines were great, other than the dual main wheels enabled the failure of one brake to blow all the brake fluid for the remaining brake out, so no brake - a few 359 degree turns taxiing in!
The Wiplines are the only amphib floats I've used. The dual mains do enable you to have the redundancy of flat tire protection. One wheel will hold up either side. The main gotcha I found was with the electrically driven hydraulics there's a solenoid in one of the floats that everything hinges on, which had a bad tendency to get just a bit of corrosion and not work requiring replacing every year if the owner wasn't diligent enough to open the compartment and let it dry out between seasons.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by trey kule »

This is a great thread..keep it coming
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by spafloats »

All amphibs have different positives and negatives.

Here are my observations:

Aerocets:
Positives: No corrosion issues with the float hulls (although water absorption and migration through the foam cored hull sides and decks if holed can be huge!)

Negatives: No uplocks on the mains which allows the mains the mains to extend and lock in flight and the nose gears to remain retracted in flight if hydraulic pressure is lost. Think where to land if no runway option in remote areas.

Wipline:

Positives: Good brakes on current models. Water rudders give good water steering. Current models give great performance off the water.

Negatives: Corrosion issues with nose gear hardware in older models. Check those nose gear boxes for attach hardware issues carefully even on low time fresh water floats.

P.K.

Positives: Tough floats. 3050 amphibs are very light for displacement. Pump and reservoir in 3050 has easy access in float hatch.

Negatives: No longer in business. Replacement parts will probably become an issue.Composite water rudders are fragile.

EDO amphibs.

Positives: Strong floats which take a lot of abuse. Prices for used models not in the stratosphere.

Negatives: Gear parts scarce. Try to get noise gear parts for 2790 and 2700/2705 models!

Spafloats
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by cloudrunner »

PilotDAR wrote:We had some posts about understanding amphibian systems, and trouble shooting systems
So what happened to that thread?
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

cloudrunner wrote:
PilotDAR wrote:We had some posts about understanding amphibian systems, and trouble shooting systems
So what happened to that thread?
I am guessing it got euthanized because one poster insisted on being a jerk......

Re Amphib systems

The tiny nosewheels on the Whips can be problematical. If you put too much of a side load on the tire you will roll the tire right off the rim. Be very careful when making sharp turns

I am embarrassed to say I also got caught out by the Whip gear selector assembly. Some but not all have a day-night switch for the gear lights. If you bump the switch while flying during the day the gear lights will be so dim it will look like the gear is not down :oops:

Obviously there is no nosewheel steering on amphibs. A brake check before landing on land is worthwhile. I once had a brake bleed down during flight . On final to the runway I squeezed the brakes and got nothing on the right side. I elected to land at the seaplane base instead and ramped it. It would have sucked to find out I had no brakes as I was rolling out especially as there was a pretty good crosswind on the runway

Finally I will add the obvious caution. Make sure the position of your wheels is appropriate to the surface you are landing on.......and then check again
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Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Sat May 23, 2015 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by cloudrunner »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
cloudrunner wrote:
PilotDAR wrote:We had some posts about understanding amphibian systems, and trouble shooting systems
So what happened to that thread?
I am guessing it got euthanized because one poster insisted on being a jerk......
Interesting. Being a jerk gets your comments vaporized around here…

Didn't know that.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

cloudrunner wrote:

Interesting. Being a jerk gets your comments vaporized around here…

Didn't know that.
I would suggest that it is quite possible to discuss any issue without being rude, sarcastic, inflammatory or bombastic. I, along with I am sure many others, would welcome additional information that will increase our knowledge of amphib systems including trouble shooting tips and tricks. I see no reason why that can't be provided without being condescending and imperious......

Somewhere in the missing thread was a pretty good list of actions to follow when having gear issues. If you were the one that wrote it than I would suggest that that would be a nice addition to this thread.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by PilotDAR »

The favourable information from the other thread is still there:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&start=25

So I don't know the reason for fuss and bent feathers.

I am not a mod here, just a contributor like everyone else. Where I am a mod, I would not have tolerated some of what I read. I commend the mods here for the work they do to maintain a PRIVATE website with the decorum preferred by its owner.
I would suggest that it is quite possible to discuss any issue without being rude, sarcastic, inflammatory or bombastic. I, along with I am sure many others, would welcome additional information that will increase our knowledge
Me too....

I, and a few other very experienced posters who contribute here do so more out of a sense of "paying it forward" than any kind of self fulfillment. I do learn here, but not in proportion to what I contribute. I choose not to play with grumpy people - 'cause I simply do not have to. So I'm delighted that mods keep things positive - thanks!
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by cloudrunner »

PilotDAR wrote:The favourable information from the other thread is still there:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&start=25
That was just put back up.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by cloudrunner »

[Come on now, keep it civil. You want to act like a school boy put it in a PM.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by PilotDAR »

Oooo, I think I hear baseball terminology on the horizon!
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Cloud .

The only purpose of Photofly's post was as you pointed out, to wind you up. That is unfortunate and IMO is exactly the kind of petty point scoring that the mods are trying to stamp out.

More unfortunate is that what started out as a pretty good thread that had actual usable information of value to the readership is now pretty much a pointless slanging match.

You had the option to make a positive contribution to this thread but chose not to. I wish that were not the case but here we are..........
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by PilotDAR »

So let's talk about amphibians, let's encourage amphibian pilot safety and fun with useful information,

Who's up for that?

One of the obvious benefits is that it does not necessarily have to suffer living in the water for extended periods. The ick and difficult environment can be avoided if desired, and it won't sink on the ramp.

But, you have the cost of extra weight. cost, and risk of a landing with the wheels in the wrong place. To guard against this, I practice "configuration assurance". I interrupt myself at the changes in phase of flight, and assure that the aircraft is configured for what I'm going to do next with it. The landing gear position is spoken out loud twice, during visual confirmation before short final.

I regularly take mine picnicing and camping in central Ontario. I really like that I can extend the main wheels, and bump them up to shore, and just tie it there floating, with no worry about a nosewheel being damaged, nor the hull getting scraped.

A tying trick I have is to take one of these along:

Image

It will allow you to tie to a crack in the rocks - very useful in Georgian Bay!
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by photofly »

Holiness
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Oh, second thing I recall about the wiplines: If you need to tow the thing around on the ground on wheels, don't pull on the nose legs themselves. Some guys did this to one apparently and it can damage that hydraulic cylinder that actuates the nose wheels extension on the floats.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Shiny Side Up wrote:Oh, second thing I recall about the wiplines: If you need to tow the thing around on the ground on wheels, don't pull on the nose legs themselves. Some guys did this to one apparently and it can damage that hydraulic cylinder that actuates the nose wheels extension on the floats.
Unfortunately the Wipline towbar attaches to a bracket just above the nosewheels so it is hard to avoid this.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Shiny Side Up wrote:Oh, second thing I recall about the wiplines: If you need to tow the thing around on the ground on wheels, don't pull on the nose legs themselves. Some guys did this to one apparently and it can damage that hydraulic cylinder that actuates the nose wheels extension on the floats.
Unfortunately the Wipline towbar attaches to a bracket just above the nosewheels so it is hard to avoid this.
True, but I suspect using the towbar on the correct brackets instead of a rope, sling or chain, would avoid putting loads where they aren't supposed to be.

edit, I should have probably specified non-use of a towbar in the previous post, as probable cause to the problem.
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Any opinions on ramping/beaching with gear down?
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

^ No issues there on a wooden/concrete ramp (in and out), although I'd be leary of doing it on a soft surface...
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by North Shore »

Last time i flew an amphibian in battle, I'd always put my gear down when approaching the shore (if the water was muddy, and i couldn't see down into it). I'd rather take a booter of cold water, than a holed float..
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by PilotDAR »

I beach regularly, I ramp infrequently, for lack of ramps. Either is where the taildragger amphibian shines. The more power you apply to pull yourself out, the more the tailwheel is lifted out, instead of a nosewheel being driven in. You want to be pretty sure of the surface before you commit to beaching, particularly with nosewheel(s). If you get it wrong, can you get turned around, or otherwise back into the water with the resources you have with you? An amphibian you've powered into being stuck, in the middle of nowhere, is a problem.

I like to beach the Teal with the mainwheels down, still floating, and just tied to shore with the mains bumping up to the bottom at shore. I'm happy to leave it floating that way overnight. I've also done this with float amphibs, though I'm less at ease with the wave bumping forces acting on more delicate float nosewheels.

If you're going to power all the way out, be very sure of the surface both under and above the water level. If you get a mainwheel stuck (against a rock, in a crack, or sunk in soft bottom), there's a problem. I carry a cheap aluminum jack, which is found in some VW Jettas and Golfs. It is much lighter than the steel ones. I traded a steel one to my daughter, to take hers from her Jetta, but I'm sure wrecking yards must have them in a pile. I have my eye out for a lifting airbag of the auto extrication type, which could be placed under a hull or float keel and hand pumped to lift the plane as needed.

Western Islands, Georgian Bay:

Image
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by SeanMountainous »

As a low time guy flying an Amphib, this is all a great help. Thanks!
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by PilotDAR »

I was flying a 180 straight floatplane with a fellow at Pitt Meadows yesterday. He kinda chuckled when I announced "wheels are up for landing on water" turning base. But I think he gets where I'm coming from. Configuration assurance.

My goodness the Fraser river had a lot of debris floating down! Landing among it was kinda like the leap to hyperspace flying the Millenium Falcon in Star Wars (just not as fast!).
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Re: Amphib systems refresher

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Anyone ever seen, used or built anything like this?

Image

It uses a electric winch to lift the back up after the plane pulls up onto it.
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