Best Flight School in the Vancouver Area

[MichaelP]

Yes, it's expensive but it's a new aeroplane and when you consider the insurance, and depreciation/amortisation costs on something like this you'll begin to understand.

Remember, Canadian flight schools have continued to operate fully depreciated old aeroplanes for rates that are lower than almost every other country in this world. Indeed, the schools here buy sixth hand Cessna 152s from the USA, restore them, and they do a perfectly good job.

Some of us offer new up to date aircraft as an alternative to the old stuff out there.
I am sure the Rent A Wreck people will still continue to thrive while Avis and Hertz are still in business. Most of us would rather rent a fairly new car rather than an old banger while we still accept the stuff some flight schools put on the ramp.

Most people like 'new' but most of us are poor too. Permabroke!

So there's room for both, and both should be available, new for those perhaps with real incomes, and old for us who have or are making aviation in Canada a career.
New perhaps when we have enough pennies in our piggy banks to splurge.

BTW I passed my Class 1 Aerobatic instructor ride in the Super Decathlon yesterday... Am I not worth the dual rate?

[Hedley]

I passed my Class 1 Aerobatic instructor ride in the Super Decathlon yesterday

Congratulations, Mike! We need more (class 1) acro instructors!

Am I not worth the dual rate?

I charge $95/hr for my instructor time. If someone
can find another:

ATPL/group 1 IFR/class 1 instructor/class 1 acro instructor/ICAS card

for cheaper, go for it! There are probably less than
10 people in all of Canada with those qualifications.

P.S. You realize I am obligated to kid you, that you did your
acro ride behind a Lycoming? j/k

P.P.S. What I charge in the Pitts make the Super-D look like
a bargain. I might mention that even though Canada is very
much a socialist state, Michael is under no legal or contractual
obligation to provide subsidized aerobatic training to the
Canadian public. If he wants to charge Cdn$3,000 per hour
for a SuperD, more power to him. If you don't want to pay
that, YOU DON'T HAVE TO - go down to the street,
to the cheaper competition. Michael is not holding a gun to
your head - if you don't want to fly it, you don't have to.

[Osiris]

Could someone explain to me how they came up with charging $290 an hour for a freaking super decathlon?

How the heck do they justify such a rental rate?

It's not cheap, however you're unlikely to find a similar training opportunity for less money.

Prior to the CFC decathlon being available, you'd have to leave the province for training in a similar aircraft (to the best of my knowledge). At current exchange rates, training with Greg Koontz (arguably some of the best decathlon training you can get) works out to a rate of about $320 Cdn a lesson. That's a lesson, not an hour. An initial aerobatic lesson is unlikely to be a full hour, especially if you're not gee'd up. In addition to that you'd have travel costs, lodging costs and you'd probably need a block of time off work. Among the rates I found in the states, the range seems to be from about $210 an hour to $336 (plus fuel surcharge) an hour, with the average in the mid to high 200s, (Cdn).

Previously there were no aircraft in the lower mainland that could provide this level of training. Now, it's available on an aircraft that's brand new, costs as much to purchase as some light twins, burns 1 and 1/2 times as much fuel as a regular trainer does and has higher insurance and maintenance costs than regular flying school aircraft. You simply can't expect to pay much less for what you're getting.

The school won't be making a monster profit on that $290 an hour rate, and it's priced quite reasonably considering the typical rates for dual aerobatic instruction on Super Decathlons, especially when you consider that it's the only aircraft of it's type available for training in the area.

[SkyWolfe]

Not to mention it is a gorgous bird

[FlaplessDork]

passed my Class 1 Aerobatic instructor ride in the Super Decathlon yesterday... Am I not worth the dual rate?

I'm a Class 1 aeroplane instructor and want to do my Class 1 acro. I have no aerobatic experience. How many hours did it take?

[MichaelP]

'Just discussed this....

See CARS 421.91 Class 2 Rating - Requirements
(b) Experience
(i) An applicant who holds or has a Flight Instructor Rating - Gliders - Aerobatic shall be deemed to have met the experience requirement.
(ii) An applicant who holds or has held a Flight Instructor Rating for aeroplanes or helicopters shall be deemed to have met the experience requirement.***
(iii) An applicant who holds or has held a Transport Canada "Statement of Aerobatic Competency" shall be deemed to have met the experience requirement.

*** Great you already meet the experience requirement, no flight training required, just five hours ground and pass the flight test

For the Class 2 aerobatic instuctor rating we will do the following as a minimum:

Since you have an instructor rating, five hours of ground briefing and ten hours in the aeroplane learning to teach aerobatics....

BUT

If you have not done aerobatics before, start with ten hours dual instruction in aerobatic manoeuvres to perfect them somewhat before we learn to teach them.
In learning to teach aerobatics, some of the emphasis has to be on recovering when the student (or yourself) screws up!
What this means is less of the ten hours should be devoted to learning the manoeuvres, and more time is used to learn ways to get out of bad situations.

So here are the minimums from a company point of view:

Minimum: 10 hours aeroplane 5 hours ground.

If no aerobatic experience add 10 hours aeroplane [20] and 5 hours ground [10].

If no tailwheel time add another 5 hours plus 2 ground.

So no tailwheel, and no previous aerobatics would add up to 25 hours aeroplane and 12 hours ground as a minimum.

We must take this business very seriously. But at the same time it is serious fun!

421.92 Class 1 Rating - Requirements

An applicant for a Class 1 Aerobatic Instructor Rating shall:
(a) hold, or have held during the preceding 12 month period, a class 2 Aerobatic Instructor Rating - Aeroplane; or
(b) where the prerequisite specified above has not been met, the applicant shall:
(i) hold or have held within the previous 12 months, a Class 1 Flight Instructor rating - Aeroplane or Helicopter; and
(ii) provide a letter certifying that the applicant is competent to perform the aerobatic manoeuvres specified in the Experience section of the class 2 Aerobatic Rating.
(2) Knowledge
(a) An applicant shall have:
(i) completed 10 hours of Aerobatic Instructor Rating ground school instruction on topics relating to the training of instructors; and
(ii) obtained a minimum of 80% in the written examination Flight Instructor rating Instructional Techniques (FITEN).
(b) An applicant who does not hold, or has not held within the previous 24 months, a class 2 Aerobatic Instructor Rating shall be required to meet the knowledge requirement for the class 2 Aerobatic Instructor Rating.
(3) Experience
An applicant shall:
(a) have completed a minimum of 50 hours aerobatic instructing experience; or
(b) hold a Class 1 Flight Instructor Rating and provide a letter certifying that the applicant is competent to perform the aerobatic manoeuvres specified in the Experience section of the class 2 Aerobatic Rating.

They ask for either 50 hours aerobatic instructing experience or a competency letter.

I would be very very cautious about signing someone off for a Class 1 unless He or she clearly demonstrates his/her knowledge and most importantly ABILITY.
If a person came to me with an aerobatic background, fair enough, but you have to know how dangerous this business can be.

I did this job with a foreign pilot (unless you believe in Manifest Destiny) in SE Asia in a CAP 10. He was a well respected pilot there and was going to ride along with the aircraft owner during practice sessions.
I did not have enough time to do the job properly, but if I didn't do my best the risks would have been greater.
So the prime objective wasn't to teach exact manoeuvres but to teach the methods by which we recover from things going wrong.
My intent was that aeroplane and people would survive.

[FlaplessDork]

Thanks for the info. The tailwheel time I have PA-18's, C140, C180, and C185's. I've been up with friends that do airshows, but I wouldn't say I know anything about it. Trying to get an idea of the costs.

Next thing I have to do is convince my wife its a good investment.

[SkyWolfe]

Next thing I have to do is convince my wife its a good investment.

Good luck with that

I didn't convince my husband! But here I am anyway

[Executiveflyby]

Could someone explain to me how they came up with charging $290 an hour for a freaking super decathlon?

How the heck do they justify such a rental rate?

-I did go there at first after seeing the aircraft. And the prices are not justified, you can't even rent solo! Their insurance coverage isn't the greatest either, always read the fine print there (CFC). They had 2 crashes in 1 year!!
Switched else where at ZBB and would recommended that to anyone.

[man-tis]

merits of this 'training' aeroplane and that for flight training

It really doesn't matter which (nosewheel) aircraft you learn
to fly on. IMHO you develop better stick & rudders skills on
a (less forgiving) tailwheel aircraft, but that's a moot point -
you can't get ab initio training on tailwheel at any FTU in Canada
AFAIK.

The important thing is the quality of instruction

Indeed.

Hi, somebody told me the same thing and I am looking now for some school with tailwheel aircr. for my ppl.
Do you any in BC or anywhere in Canada? Thanks!
(Also is it easy to fly cessna etc. if trained in tailwheel aircraft? )

[pelmet]

Yesterday we were in for a full TC inspection.
They even went through the SportStar which as an 'ultralight' is not even on our OC!
All was well with the world and we intend to keep everything present and correct.

What location has a Sportstar? I'm interested in flying one.

[AirFrame]

@man-tis: this info is a couple of years old now but... Last I heard, there was someone at Langley, BC who was doing ab-initio training in a Cessna 140. After your first 5-10 hours you transition to a 150 before you solo... He wasn't insured to allow first solos in the 140. I don't know the name, but I'll ask around and see if I can find out.

[Cat Driver]

What is the reason his insurance won't allow solo, a Cessna 140 is not the space shuttle.

[akoch]

What location has a Sportstar? I'm interested in flying one.

This was at CZBB SLA, but the airplane is long gone now. Sportstar no more. Old thread.

[dashali]

hi . Pacific Flying Club Vancouver or Canadian Flight Centre or Professional Flight Centre International Flight Centre which one is better ?

[gaamin]

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