TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by HiFlyChick »

trey kule wrote:It will not stop until literally everyone refuses, as they can go after one person at a time....

Kudos to all those who refuse to pay. Make it expensive and difficult to collect and they will raise the fee, and keep raising it as long as they can, but like cigarette taxes, in the end they will alienate everyone and trigger a backlash.
Pay it like good sheep and they will increase it....
Ummmmmm, and cigarettes don't have a tax on them....

While we're at it, why don't we stop paying our income taxes as well? So it's a tax - so what? It is what it is and there are a certainly a lot more important battles to fight. If you think a bunch of people just not paying will make a difference then you are either very naïve or 12... or maybe both.

Gotta run - got my $55 bill in the mail just the other day and I'm off to pay it online.... (and no, I'm not kidding)
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by HiFlyChick »

And that's all done (for another 6 months)
And it took me how many minutes...? (course it would've been faster if I hadn't mis-entered my credit card's expiry date)
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by AirFrame »

HiFlyChick wrote:Ummmmmm, and cigarettes don't have a tax on them....
Riiiiight. $12 (or whatever) a pack and you think none of that is tax? It's all tax, on people too dumb to quit smoking.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liquid Charlie
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:40 am
Location: YXL
Contact:

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Liquid Charlie »

So -- we all pay taxes and b1tch about it -- well my opinion we should pay more tax and have the government support us more but who could trust them to do so -- for the 55 bucks -- who really cares but one area that does need addressing is the fees the doctors charge to do the medicals -- maybe they should be covered under health care but no -- the fees make no sense to me -- from a high of about $250 to a low of around $60 -- for those trapped in an area where they have you by the short and curlys it makes no sense to me -- It is cheaper for me to fly to TB and back - rent a car and still be $150 bucks ahead - I could even drive and cost less -- go figure --
---------- ADS -----------
 
Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight

ACTPA :kriz:
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by HiFlyChick »

AirFrame wrote:
HiFlyChick wrote:Ummmmmm, and cigarettes don't have a tax on them....
Riiiiight. $12 (or whatever) a pack and you think none of that is tax? It's all tax, on people too dumb to quit smoking.
Forgot the html tags:
[sarcasm]...[/sarcasm]

You men - you never read tone ;)
---------- ADS -----------
 
TG
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2102
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by TG »

trey kule wrote:Ethics and government are two words that never should be in the same sentence.

Kudos to all those who refuse to pay. Make it expensive and difficult to collect and they will raise the fee, and keep raising it as long as they can, but like cigarette taxes, in the end they will alienate everyone and trigger a backlash.
Pay it like good sheep and they will increase it.

They do not know when to stop. At least this kind of protest slows the increases down
That way of thinking worked great in Greece.
A country bankrupt where its national sport for years has been.... Not paying any taxes!

They are all crying mama to come to the rescue...... Sure! :roll:
Ethics goes both ways. It has to be shown by a government but also the people!







Call me sheep :mrgreen:


Edit: To go back to the topic, like Liquid Charlie is saying, I see more doctors' fees going up and up being an issue.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
EPR
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:38 am
Location: South of 60, finally!

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by EPR »

Cap'n Tripps...well said!
Cap'n Tripps wrote:Can someone explain why ATC have no fee to process their medicals, but pilots do?

Why can't I pay a flat one time fee with the issue of a booklet instead of twice yearly?

Just what exactly are they doing with the $55 fee which is paid to the receiver general?

Does it really cost that much to process and file a medical? If it does cost that much, shouldn't the process be changed to make it more efficient?

Why do I need to make an appointment to visit TC office? Why am I made to feel like I'm somehow intruding on TC's important work when I have an issue I need to deal with them on?

Why do I get different points of view to an issue depending on which TC office I contact or even different inspectors within the same office?

Why is the only person who can answer a question always on vacation?

Is the person(s) doing the medical processing and filing not doing anything else for TC that they are receiving a paycheque for? If not, why am I subsidizing the federal government? Isn't that what my taxes are for?

Why is TC potentially threatening my livelihood over a completely arbitrary $55 fee?



Just asking. (seriously!)
I just received my new "Aviation Document" and the same letter about suspension all in the same week...lol..I owe since 2008!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Keep the dirty side down.
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Rockie »

It's been $55 for as long as I can remember - which is a pretty long time - so I'm not sure where the impression comes from that it's increasing. And all you guys high fiving yourselves and dislocating your shoulders patting yourself on the back for sticking it to the man will no doubt enjoy telling your CP why you can't fly until you get your license returned should TC do what they say they're going to do. He might be very supportive of your quest to reign in unfair taxes, but on the other hand he might decide you're an idiot and can look for another job at the same time you beg TC for your license back.

I know I would send someone packing if they came to me with that ridiculous excuse for losing their license.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cap'n Tripps
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 4:06 pm

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Cap'n Tripps »

tower controller wrote:
Can someone explain why ATC have no fee to process their medicals, but pilots do?
ATC medicals are subject to the same fees as pilot's medicals, as a matter of fact they are the same medicals...

Controllers employed by Nav Canada have their medical processing fees paid by Nav Canada and billed directly to Nav Canada, but they are paid same as yours.
I beg to differ, just because Nav Canada (a federal Crown corporation much like Canada Post) pays the processing fee directly, most definitely does not make them paid "same as ours". Are there controllers in Canada not employed by Nav Canada? If they are not paid out of pocket, then it seems to me that the government is subsidizing their own controllers. Are the medicals themselves conducted by a Nav Canada doctor or are they paid out of pocket by the individual controllers?

Just doesn't seem like a level playing field to me, especially if it's the 'same' medical.

Just wondering some more.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tower controller
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:09 am
Location: East Coast

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by tower controller »

Nav Canada is a private not for profit corporation and is not a crown corporation. The company paying our medical fees is a negotiated item like our salary and holidays.

Yes there are controllers not employed by Nav Canada, the controllers in Goose Bay and Southport are not Nav Canada employees, I have no idea if their employers pay their medical fees.

There aren't any Nav canada doctors, I go to the same doctor as the local pilots for my Medical.

I don't pay him or Transport Canada it gets billed to the company.


Tc
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Rockie »

Some aviation companies reimburse their pilots for the medical fee as well just like NavCanada. It is a benefit of employment and nothing to do with the government. I doubt military controllers are required to have a civilian licence since they don't control civilian airspace, but if they are no doubt the military would pay their fee.
---------- ADS -----------
 
N2
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:23 am
Location: Under witness protection!

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by N2 »

Don't feel bad I just got dinged by Nav Canada for an aircraft that hasn't flown in years. Tried to get a username and password to the AAIR website to provide print screens of the craft being inactive and lets just say I would have better luck asking my cat to provide me with access. Canadian bureaucracy just gotta love it!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Putting money into aviation is like wiping before you poop....it just don't make sense!
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by AuxBatOn »

tower controller wrote:Nav Canada is a private not for profit corporation and is not a crown corporation. The company paying our medical fees is a negotiated item like our salary and holidays.

Yes there are controllers not employed by Nav Canada, the controllers in Goose Bay and Southport are not Nav Canada employees, I have no idea if their employers pay their medical fees.

There aren't any Nav canada doctors, I go to the same doctor as the local pilots for my Medical.

I don't pay him or Transport Canada it gets billed to the company.


Tc

Don't get the truth get in the way of a good rant!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
User avatar
looproll
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:51 pm

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by looproll »

1996 was the last time Transport Canada was running ATC and air traffic services in Canada. Why do people still think NavCanada is associated with the government?
---------- ADS -----------
 
vanNostrum
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:49 pm
Location: Progressive's Paradise

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by vanNostrum »

looproll wrote:1996 was the last time Transport Canada was running ATC and air traffic services in Canada. Why do people still think NavCanada is associated with the government?
Perhaps has something to do with the salaries,benefits, job security and pensions that NavCanada employees enjoy.
In general such largesse is only found in Government agencies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by HiFlyChick »

vanNostrum wrote:
looproll wrote:1996 was the last time Transport Canada was running ATC and air traffic services in Canada. Why do people still think NavCanada is associated with the government?
Perhaps has something to do with the salaries,benefits, job security and pensions that NavCanada employees enjoy.
In general such largesse is only found in Government agencies.
Job security in the form of you can be sent to anywhere they want to send you in Canada.... I looked at going with NavCanada many years ago but didn't know if I could handle being sent to some remote location for a few years until I clawed my way high enough up the ladder. And even when you get seniority, its not like you can get posted where you want to - you need to wait until a position opens up (i.e. back home).

Not that pilots have it any easier, but it's not like it's a total walk in the park working for NC....
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flying Fish
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Flying Fish »

Just paid mine over the phone with the number wrote on the invoice... pain in the ass but do'able... had receive a notice too they were pending the treatment of my rating sticker. They hurt my feeling ;)
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
single_swine_herder
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by single_swine_herder »

looproll wrote:1996 was the last time Transport Canada was running ATC and air traffic services in Canada. Why do people still think NavCanada is associated with the government?
Probably because a substantial number of people still call Transport Canada "MOT." A trial name for all govt depts such as Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Health, etc .... an image project that lasted for 2 years or so before reverting.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by HiFlyChick »

Probably because a substantial number of people still call Transport Canada "MOT." A trial name for all govt depts such as Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Health, etc .... an image project that lasted for 2 years or so before reverting.
My CAME still does that, even though he's been doing medicals and all of the accompanying TC paperwork for something like 30+ years :)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liquid Charlie
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:40 am
Location: YXL
Contact:

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Liquid Charlie »

I think Rocky mentioned this but for those who depend on flying to support self and family -- suck it up and stop your bitching -- can you imagine the company's reaction after you tell them your license is suspended after not paying your fees -- good for the guy junior to you -- but you are kicking stones worst case and on unpaid leave best case -- if you don't have the ability to challenge in court or the deep pockets to do so -- take the pain -- after all as a group we seem to like pain -- ky does help a little but when you start to like it -- :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight

ACTPA :kriz:
AirMail
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:48 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by AirMail »

IIRC the bitching about the 55 fee started when it was first introduced to cover AIP amendments mailed out to each pilot. Then when they stopped that and kept the fee by simply renaming it everyone bitched again. Rightfully so at that point. However it's been now 10 yrs since that, the fee isn't going away and one way or another a gov't organization is going to get their money one way or another.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CD
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:13 pm
Location: Canada

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by CD »

There have been quite a few threads on this topic over the years... I think the longest was the following:

AvCanada: TC sends Collection Agency after me

Somewhere in that thread, I also posted some of the history and that we did have the opportunity to debate and provide information regarding the fees if you were either a member of, or represented by a group that was part of the Regulatory Services Fees Technical Committee back in the 1990's:
The members of the Regulatory Services Fees Technical Committee of CARAC include Aero Club of Canada, Aerospace Industries Association of Canada, Air Canada, Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Association (Atlantic) Inc., Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association - Canada, Air Transport Association of Canada, Association québécoise des transporteurs aériens inc., Aviation Québec, British Columbia Aviation Council, Calgary Flying Club, Canada 3000 Airlines - Pilots Association, Canadian Airlines International, Canadian Air Line Pilots Association, Canadian Association of Aviation Colleges, Canadian Business Aircraft Association, Canadian Helicopters Ltd., Canadian Owners and Pilots Association, Canadian Transportation Agency, Central AME Association, Diamond Aircraft Industries, Experimental Aircraft Association - Canadian Council, Fantasy Sky Promotions, Helicopter Association of Canada, Home Aviation, International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, International Council of Air Shows, Light Aircraft Manufacturers Association of Canada, Northern Air Transport Association, Phoenix Aviation Resources, Pratt and Whitney Canada Inc., Shuswap Air, Soaring Association of Canada, Ultralight Pilots Association of Canada, and Union of Canadian Transport Employees.
As a member of the general public, we also usually have the opportunity to provide comment on any regulation proposed by the Federal Government when it is published in the Canada Gazette. In the case of the fees charged, they have existed for years so I'm not sure when they were first introduced. The earliest publication that I have found online is old Air Regulation 820, which references a Schedule 1 where the fees at the time were:
Issue of a licence validation certificate for

(a) a commercial pilot or airline transport pilot
(i) for a six-month period - $45
(ii) for a one-year period - $70

(b) a private pilot, balloon pilot or glider pilot
(i) for a one-year period - $50
(ii) for a two-year period - $85
(iii) for a five-year period - $185

Old Air Regulations - Part VIII

When the fees were revised in 1997, we all missed the boat as the regulatory change document records the following information:
Consultation

Part I, Subpart 4 (Charges) was prepublished in Canada Gazette, Part I on 2 August 1997. Fewer than twenty comments were received many of which have been taken into account in the revisions to this regulation and its accompanying fee schedule...
RIAS Archive Files - Subpart 104 96-433 October 2, 1996
RIAS Archive Files - Subpart 104 97-542 December 24, 1997

When the fees were revised again in 2000, the public comment period was omitted as the regulatory change appears to have been published directly in the Canada Gazette, Part II:
Currently, Schedule IV to Subpart 4, item 20, lists a separate fee for the processing of a medical certificate for each combination of type of pilot licence or permit and for each validity period. The validity period is the maximum amount of time that a pilot may fly before he/she must again satisfy the Department of Transport that he/she continues to satisfy the medical criteria for the applicable licence or permit. These validity periods vary according to the type of licence or permit held and the age of the applicant. For example, the validity period for a commercial or airline transport pilot under 40 years old is 12 months while that for a commercial or airline transport pilot 40 or over is 6 months. On the other hand, the validity period for a recreational pilot permit may be either 2 years (for a pilot aged 40 or older) or 5 years (for a pilot younger than 40). In total, there are 14 separate combinations of pilot documents and validity periods for which a fee is charged for the processing of a medical certificate. The fees range from a low of $55, generally for a 6 month or a 12 month validity period, to $185, for a 5-year validity period. These fees were intended to recover not only the costs of processing medical certificates but also the costs of other services provided to pilots without charge, such as safety publications.

Over the coming year, Transport Canada intends to make many of its publications available on the Internet free of charge. Included in this plan are many of the safety publications provided to pilots. The costs of producing and mailing safety publications to pilots will significantly diminish. Consequently, the justification for higher fees based on the length of the medical certificate validity period diminishes as well.

This amendment will replace the 14 separate combinations of pilot documents and validity periods and the 4 alternative fees with a single fee for the processing of pilot medical certificates, regardless of the type of licence or permit held or of the length of the validity period. The new fee will be the lowest of the current 4 alternative possibilities, i.e., $55 for the processing of a medical certificate. Those pilots currently paying $55 for the processing of their medical certificates will continue to pay $55. Those pilots who currently pay more than $55 will realize a reduction of between $15 and $130 in the fees they pay under this proposal.

Consultation

The proposal to simplify the fees listed under CAR 104.01, Schedule IV, item 20 to a single fee of $55 was discussed at the Personnel Licensing and Training Technical Committee of the Canadian Aviation Regulation Advisory Council (CARAC) on March 28, 2000. Also discussed at that Technical Committee meeting was the proposal to fast-track this amendment by proceeding directly to final approval and publication in Part II of the Canada Gazette. The fast-tracking of this amendment is considered necessary to ensure equitable treatment of all pilots. New validity periods will be coming into force shortly and some of these do not have an existing fee for processing the medical certificate. Without the simplified fee structure, or some other similar regulatory amendment which would include these new validity periods, pilots subject to these new validity periods would not be subject to any medical certificate fee. This would result in some pilots being subject to fees for processing of their medical certificates and others not. Proceeding with the simplified, consolidated fee structure as soon as possible will avoid this inequitable situation.

At the Technical Committee meeting, Transport Canada committed to developing a brochure to explain the new simplified fee structure for distribution to aviation personnel. As well, notice of the proposed change will be placed in the July 13, 2000 Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) to be sent to all pilots.

Industry representatives present during the Technical Committee meeting included participants from the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association (COPA), from the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) and from the Air Transport Association of Canada (ATAC). The members of the Technical Committee indicated their support for the proposal to fast-track the publication of amendment to CAR 104.01, Schedule IV, item 20 which will address the simplified fee structure. These members have also agreed to participate in communicating the details of the fee simplification and to prepare information articles for publication in trade magazines and newsletters.
RIAS Archive Files - Canada Gazette, Part II (Subpart 104 - July 5, 2000)
---------- ADS -----------
 
trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by trey kule »

Advisory Circular no 600-005

It seems they really are getting desparate for money, and do not know when to stop.

$55.00. That is what they say I owe them. And for that they will refuse to issue me a Canadian document, refuse service, and if I go 120 days they will pursue measures to actually suspend my license.......

For $55.00!

they are taking us on, one person at a time. Disgusting abuse of power. No thought, whatsoever to eliminating the fee. Just ramp up the collection procedures,

Perhaps we should consider setting up a justice fund to hire a good tax lawyer to research how this fee came into existance, if it is, in fact, a tax, and if their enforcement collection methods are within the charter of rights and fredoms.

If it is not legal you can bet TC will not stop until they are prooerly challanged in a court. Ethics and fairness seem to be missing in the top levels of TC...all about money
---------- ADS -----------
 
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by trey kule »

Plan B

Someone just told me that people can contact the federal ombudsman about the legality of this and the enforcement measures.

I am hoping more than a few people will take a few moments to do this. As long as they can deal with us one at a time, they will not stop.

It was also just mentioned to me that if these procedures work the medical fee will be heading up substantially as the only thing keeping at this level is the concern that if they raise it even fewer will pay. But once they have that little problem under control, the sky is the limit.

Makes sense to me. I guess we will see in the not to long future
---------- ADS -----------
 
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: TC to suspend license over unpaid $55 fee

Post by Rockie »

trey kule wrote:$55.00. That is what they say I owe them. And for that they will refuse to issue me a Canadian document, refuse service, and if I go 120 days they will pursue measures to actually suspend my license.......
If you think these measures are extreme for such a paltry amount, do you think risking your livelihood for such a paltry amount makes even less sense?
trey kule wrote:Perhaps we should consider setting up a justice fund to hire a good tax lawyer to research how this fee came into existance, if it is, in fact, a tax, and if their enforcement collection methods are within the charter of rights and fredoms.If it is not legal you can bet TC will not stop until they are prooerly challanged in a court. Ethics and fairness seem to be missing in the top levels of TC...all about money
Consider for a moment what would happen if people took a similar stance against driver's license fees or vehicle registration fees. Do you seriously think a court would rule in your favour when the government denied your license or vehicle registration for refusing to pay the fee? Hell, in 2005 the Ontario court ruled your vehicle registration renewal could be denied if you didn't pay your highway 407 bill, and highway 407 is a privately owned corporation that has nothing to do with the government.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”