Beren's Band roasts air ambulance service in the media

[flyinthebug]

The article says they launched a 200 at 2:30 am which is 1 hour after intial call.
That sounds about right 15 minutes for Health to contact an operator and 45 minutes to launch a crew from sleep to airborne.
The jet couldn't land and they dispatched the next best thing.
Sounds like an unfortunate situation but the reality of medical care in the North. Even if the jet had got there In time he would have passed on the way down according to this time line.

1:30 - Accident/ triage
~145 - sends for the Jet
~200- MB Health tenders the flight to third party
~230- Third party launches
Within the next 45 minutes (block time to Berens from YWG) he passes before the 200 can land.

I cut your post here, as this is where you lose me. Where in the article does it say they launched the 200 @ 0230? You are basing your theory on assumed numbers. We don't know if the accident was at 0100 0r 0130? Unless of course you believe everything you read on the internet?

From the article...

Health Emergency Management said an air ambulance was dispatched sometime after 2:30 a.m., but McKay died before it attempted to land.

Note it says "sometime after" 0230. Not 0230 sharp as your claim suggest. That could have been, and was more likely to be 0330-0400.

The nurses in Berens are well aware of normal response time...and I doubt they would have taken this to the media to begin with, if they felt things were done right? Just a guess, but an educated one.

FTB

[schnitzel2k3]

The article says they launched a 200 at 2:30 am which is 1 hour after intial call.
That sounds about right 15 minutes for Health to contact an operator and 45 minutes to launch a crew from sleep to airborne.
The jet couldn't land and they dispatched the next best thing.
Sounds like an unfortunate situation but the reality of medical care in the North. Even if the jet had got there In time he would have passed on the way down according to this time line.

1:30 - Accident/ triage
~145 - sends for the Jet
~200- MB Health tenders the flight to third party
~230- Third party launches
Within the next 45 minutes (block time to Berens from YWG) he passes before the 200 can land.

In an alternate universe:

1:30 - Accident/ triage
~145 - sends for the Jet
~215 - Jet launches
~250 - Jet arrives
~350 - Jet leaves
some time between the Jet arriving and leaving he would have passed.

What he needed was a trauma facility, not a Citation.

Agreed.

The only difference is that the nurses could pass blame onto the doctor, 'We did our job' so to speak.

S.

[Ki-ll]

I do not think that Lifeflight staff would spend an hour on the ground. It is usually more than that as they are very thorough in what they do, nursing station is about 10 minutes away from the airport as well.

[Redneck_pilot86]

I used to fly medevac and scheduled service into Beren`s all the time in a PA31-350 or C414. It is a challenging strip even for a light twin.

I guess the old school mentality of "get er done" has vanished, and we`ll just let people die now because its against the regs to try and save them. Thankfully, we didn't have that mentality 20+ years ago and we got people to the hospital when they needed to be there. Im not saying that pushing aircraft limitations or wx is the right answer, but at least we could have a reasonable plan in place for situations exactly like this one....so next time the young man doesn't die.

One final FYI... and ill likely get flamed for this comment BUT...if 60' of runway was the only obstacle to doing this flight safely, id suggest the pilots really dropped the ball! 60' wouldn't have stopped me if I knew it was life or death.

You can't start by saying "I'm not saying pushing aircraft limitations is the right answer" followed by "60' wouldnt have stopped me". There is a line. People smarter than you drew it. These pilots had the airmanship to follow it. You could learn something, before you kill yourself. Killing yourself or your crew to save someone else doesn't make you a hero, it makes you an idiot.

Call me a cowboy if you like, but human life matters to me and always has. I take great pride in some of the missions I flew as a medevac pilot, and I know for a fact that my actions as a pilot, saved at least 4 lives that I was directly involved with. Yes we broke duty time, yes we pushed wx, but we felt we had a job to do...much like ambulance drivers on the street. If there is a snowstorm and the roads are closed because the cops say its too dangerous...do the ambulance drivers then just park their cars and let people die? No, they push past their 15 hour day and get the job done. People count on medevac pilots to be there for them and I always believed that we had "different" limitations than on a regular flight. Maybe I took my job too seriously? Maybe I was wrong to push even my own limits of comfort, but when a life is on the line, I feel we have to push to give them a shot. Yet even more than this, why wasn't a light twin at the ready, to cover in cases exactly like this one?? Something we should ALL think about!

You are wrong, repeatedly. Your job is to fly the plane safely and legally, not to decide whether it's ok to risk several peoples lives to possibly save 1.

[Rookie50]

Lots of runways in the Yukon and BC are daylight only, anyone that thinks you can fly a plane in the dark as well as you can in daylight is kidding themselves. Its a shame that that this guy died, but it isn't even remotely the crews fault. I really hope no young medevac pilot sees this event and then goes out and kills their crew trying to do something they shouldn't because they are afraid of the backlash. This nurse needs to stick to nursing and leave the flying to the professionals before she gets someone killed.

I'm not blaming the crew -- see my other post -- but perhaps the nurse is a tad upset someone died in front of them and nobody came. Ball was dropped, whether it was years ago in the planning or at the time.

There was a victim here who deserves some compassion, and it wasn't the pilots.

[photofly]

I hope we all agree that just like pilots, nurses too should be professional enough not to become emotionally involved in the outcomes of their patients.

[Rookie50]

I hope we all agree that just like pilots, nurses too should be professional enough not to become emotionally involved in the outcomes of their patients.

When they die on the table right in front of them? Maybe they were friends. Small community, right?

Cut the nurse some slack.

[photofly]

wft?

[CpnCrunch]

I hope we all agree that just like pilots, nurses too should be professional enough not to become emotionally involved in the outcomes of their patients.

I think it was more of a WTF moment. The nurse has just been told on the phone that they can't fly there, even though they've flown there in the past. Sounds like either the situation wasn't explained properly to the nurse, and/or it's an attempt to light a fire under someone's ass to get the situation fixed for the future.

It seems reasonable to try and fix the system when it's clearly not working. Perhaps going through the usual channels hasn't worked and going to the newspapers seemed the only way to get things moving.

[awitzke]

Doesn't Missinippi operate King Airs in MB for medivac?

[FighterPilot]

Doesn't Missinippi operate King Airs in MB for medivac?

And so does Skynorth and Fast Air... Perimeter uses their Metros. Where are you going with this?

[bcflyer]

Let me get this straight. Two fellow pilots made a decision. They looked at the situation, decided it wasn't safe, and refused to risk the lives of several people for the possibility of saving another. Instead of applauding them for refusing to be pushed, we get a bunch of supposed fellow aviators slamming them... I can only think of one word to describe that kind of response. Pathetic....

[Hockaloogie]

One final FYI... and ill likely get flamed for this comment BUT...

Well, you were certainly correct about THAT...

[flyinthebug]

One final FYI... and ill likely get flamed for this comment BUT...

Well, you were certainly correct about THAT...

I have a problem looking at people as freight...and an even bigger problem with people who do it. Human life matters, and I shudder to think who is flying air ambulances these days. When I flew medevac, we cared about who was in the back and getting them to the hospital where they would receive help.

I did NOT flame the flight crew for their decision...although if 60' of runway was their only concern...I said I would have launched and I would have...that doesn't mean I am belittling the crew for their decision. My MAIN concern is that they apparently didn't have a plan B in place...and there was a lot of confusion in getting a 200 in the air...as it took far too long for that to occur. I accept and respect the decision the jet crew made, but im pissed that the province didn't have an immediate plan B in place...and the fact that they LIED to the nurses and said the Citation doesn't go into Berens, when we clearly know they have done it dozens of times.

Its not the citation crew I am upset with...its the province not having a back up plan in place, that could have been implemented in 5 minutes once they knew the Citation crew couldn't do the mission.

I meant no disrespect to the Citation crew...but I will say I wonder of 60' of runway was the only determining factor in a go/no go decision...*I* personally would have launched...but hey, I know the difference between a life and death medevac....and people screaming for their pop and chips. BIG difference in my opinion...and should be a difference all medevac pilots share. What if you local ambulance drivers took this same attitude? The fact that I feel medevac flying means maybe we push our personal limits...doesn't mean I think we are super heros and should launch into anything...that's ridiculous. Yes we are paid to fly and mitigate risk...but sometimes we have to push our own parameters when a human life is at stake. That doesn't make me someone that "makes it personal"...it makes me someone who cares about getting sick people to a hospital as soon as it can safely be done.

I wasn't there, so I don't know what other factors went into the decision of the Citation crew not to launch, but again, my problem isn't with them...its with the government not having a stand by King Air or Navajo that could launch within 30-45 mins,. We had a 30 min response time, from call to being in the air...im sure the standards are similar today.

Im now done explaining myself. Enjoy the thread.

Fly safe all.
FTB

[Hockaloogie]

You've done an admirable job explaining yourself, but it wasn't necessary, at least for me. I knew exactly what you were trying to say.

Somewhere in MB there's a PIC who had to make a life and death decision, and he knows how it turned out.

You can bet your sweet ass he didn't go home at the end of the day, look his wife and kids in the eye, and say, "oh well, it was just another box."

He will have to get back on the horse quickly, because that's the job, but he's going to hurt for a long time, and I'm glad it wasn't me.

[switchflicker]

I think we are making some progress on the second page of this discussion. But I cannot for the life of me see anywhere that it was the pilot(s) who stated that they didn't go into Berens River.

""The nurses called for a Lifeflight jet to come to Berens River, and were shocked to hear the response.
"Within a few minutes of giving my report the flight nurse said ‘I should let you know, we don't land in Berens River.’ I said excuse me? ‘We don't land in Berens River’,” said Rookes.""

And certainly the flight nurse, what ever responsibility that position includes, would not have the authority to decide what runways or airports the Lifeflight operations goes into. Lifeflight is a fairly complex part of MGAS and the Operations Manual and other guidance material surly must dictate where and when the Citation will be dispatched. While the Citation doesn't need WAT charts, I just bet they have pre calculated most all the runways in Manitoba. Of course the pilot(s) will check the weather and make a go/wait decision based their flight planning.

Is there any Lifeflight pilots/dispatchers reading this thread who would be willing to give us an outline on how a medevac call is handled? From the call to the Lifeflight emergency telephone to the aircraft lift off.

[CID]

Its not the citation crew I am upset with...its the province not having a back up plan in place, that could have been implemented in 5 minutes once they knew the Citation crew couldn't do the mission.

I have a bit of a problem with that statement. Regardless of what anyone thinks, nobody in Canada has the God-given right to equal access to healthcare or other services regardless of their location in the country or the time of day or the weather.

If you live in a remote, sparsely settled region or community you need to understand that you may not have all of the resources instantly available to you as persons who live in a large city. Furthermore, if you personally, or as a community WISH to enhance your healthcare capabilities, nobody is stopping you. Go ahead and spend the money.

As far as public money goes, the various levels of government need to determine if spending a million to extend this runway is a better choice than adding another diagnostic instrument in a hospital or expanding preventative medicine or education in these small communities.

We must also consider the obvious finger pointing that occurs whenever something like this happens. It's always somebody else's fault according to the community leaders. Who's responsibility exactly is it to come up with a "plan" much less a "plan B"?? Just how much did the community leaders know about the limitations of the airport and for how long?

One of the medevac aircraft providers parks an aircraft right at the reserve airport only to have it vandalized occasionally. Funny how "these people" (Yah I said it...) think.

[Rookie50]

Let me get this straight. Two fellow pilots made a decision. They looked at the situation, decided it wasn't safe, and refused to risk the lives of several people for the possibility of saving another. Instead of applauding them for refusing to be pushed, we get a bunch of supposed fellow aviators slamming them... I can only think of one word to describe that kind of response. Pathetic....

Obviously then you're not reading all the comments. I for one am blaming the lack of backup plan, or a proper plan at all, not the crew.

Some would rather blame the natives. Convenient, without necessarily having facts to do so.

Yeah let's applaud a process where someone died. I openly question if the location was down south and a few other details different, if these attitudes would be indentical.

[Rookie50]

Its not the citation crew I am upset with...its the province not having a back up plan in place, that could have been implemented in 5 minutes once they knew the Citation crew couldn't do the mission.

I have a bit of a problem with that statement. Regardless of what anyone thinks, nobody in Canada has the God-given right to equal access to healthcare or other services regardless of their location in the country or the time of day or the weather.

If you live in a remote, sparsely settled region or community you need to understand that you may not have all of the resources instantly available to you as persons who live in a large city. Furthermore, if you personally, or as a community WISH to enhance your healthcare capabilities, nobody is stopping you. Go ahead and spend the money.

As far as public money goes, the various levels of government need to determine if spending a million to extend this runway is a better choice than adding another diagnostic instrument in a hospital or expanding preventative medicine or education in these small communities.

We must also consider the obvious finger pointing that occurs whenever something like this happens. It's always somebody else's fault according to the community leaders. Who's responsibility exactly is it to come up with a "plan" much less a "plan B"?? Just how much did the community leaders know about the limitations of the airport and for how long?

One of the medevac aircraft providers parks an aircraft right at the reserve airport only to have it vandalized occasionally. Funny how "these people" (Yah I said it...) think.

What exactly is that last sentence supposed to mean, and what is it's relevance to what happened here?
Vandalism never happens "down south"?

[flyinthebug]

Its not the citation crew I am upset with...its the province not having a back up plan in place, that could have been implemented in 5 minutes once they knew the Citation crew couldn't do the mission.

I have a bit of a problem with that statement. Regardless of what anyone thinks, nobody in Canada has the God-given right to equal access to healthcare or other services regardless of their location in the country or the time of day or the weather.

If you live in a remote, sparsely settled region or community you need to understand that you may not have all of the resources instantly available to you as persons who live in a large city. Furthermore, if you personally, or as a community WISH to enhance your healthcare capabilities, nobody is stopping you. Go ahead and spend the money.

...and this is where your argument falls apart. Berens River pays a monthly fee to the MB Government air ambulance service (Lifeflight in MB) to provide 24 hour medevac coverage to their community. Whether there are 2 medevac flights or 20 in a month, they pay a flat rate plus per flight rate (which is rack rate at worst). In return, Lifeflight then guarantees certain things to the Community, and everyone is happy. They have a contractual agreement and commitment now. The Berens River community paid for it.

In this particular case, the nurse expressed a strong objection to the comment that The Lifeflight jet does not fly into Berens...as she knew that wasn't the case. Her frustration worsened when she was likely told, we`ll call you back shortly...and shortly became far too long. Try to picture how bad this young man could/would have been, and what the nurses were dealing with? When the government failed to provide a service that they are contracted and paid to provide...shouldn't the nurses have expected an aircraft in a certain, predetermined period of time? An agreed upon response time before they signed the contract?

Assuming I am correct, that means Berens River as a community has paid for the services you suggested they didn't pay for. That also means that the government in return, agreed (in contract) to a response time...and my guess is that if that response time was even close to being "acceptable", none of us would be discussing this here and now. The nurses don't run to media on a daily, weekly, monthly basis with these type of accusations do they? Someone dropped the ball. I don't understand why some of you don't get that?

Fly safe all,
FTB

[awitzke]

Doesn't Missinippi operate King Airs in MB for medivac?

And so does Skynorth and Fast Air... Perimeter uses their Metros. Where are you going with this?

Oh just looking at it from the point of if the Citation couldn't get in, they could call a King Air which after reading more looks like they did just that.

It would all be null anyways though since he likely would have died in flight given the timeline when he passed.

[CID]

Rookie50, I'm not a racist but I have a feeling you don't have a clue.

[CID]

...and this is where your argument falls apart.

Not at all. Regardless of what the community has "paid for" they will not be able to achieve the same level of service as a large city or a less isolated community. If you are seriously injured in a remote area your chances of survival are seriously affected as your access to emergency healthcare will be limited to a nursing station equipped with little more than first aid kits. If you're lucky, you had a heart attack and they may have a defibrillator but if you'r in shock or losing blood or have a serious infection, you're in deep trouble.

If a community contracts a service, ANY service, you would think they would be well aware of the limitations of that service but I digress. Reserves in that part of the world are managed horribly.

[HiFlyChick]

Just a quick comment about the discussion about whether or not medevac pilots should push it - although it seems to be noble to put your life on the line for someone else's, you need to also consider the implications that has for future medevacs. If you crash and kill everyone and destroy the airplane, the next time there is a medevac, you and the plane won't be there to save them. Since we're talking government stuff it's a different discussion somewhat (I originally said this to a friend at MAF, where resources are much more limited), but there's still an element of truth to it here just considering the time to get a new aircraft and crew, etc.

[HiFlyChick]

And because $.02 isn't enough, lets make it $.04...

Although 60' sounds like such a small mount, I agree with those who say that you have to draw the line somewhere. For those who disagree because it was "only 60 ft" - what would've been enough to refuse? 80? 100? Pretty arbitrary once you get past that "we can't make it in" line. Also, consider this - shooting off the far end of the runway by 100 ft or by only 10 ft - maybe it changes what you ran into, but in either case it's still bad. I can hear the ensuing conversation "Darn - we ran off the end" "Yeah, but at least it was only by 10 ft..."