Not fishing, just curious.
This is for the higher time guys who have patiently waited the last few years. How do you feel about AC hiring relatively low-time guys?
feelings on air canada hiring
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ihavecontrol
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metal overcast
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just curious
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I'm not really that bent about it.
Yes, I'd like to drive a large aircraft and not have to load the damned thing.
But, it would take me under the CCAA reduced start package and pay group, till I retire to make what I make now. The ACPA concession for new hire salaries means in effect that the senior drivers are essentially eating their young. This will only set the stage for a "what about me"
mentality when they get a bit of union power.
In addition, Air Canada in structuring ACE and Jazz so that at least in pay if not in reality they are two separate entities, have created a poisonous work environment. It's had 20 years to fester, and they've done sfa to mitigate it. It was bad enough when it was red team vs blue team. Now they're just a CRM nightmare.
If I really felt the urge to drive bigger iron, I'd go WJ.
Yes, I'd like to drive a large aircraft and not have to load the damned thing.
But, it would take me under the CCAA reduced start package and pay group, till I retire to make what I make now. The ACPA concession for new hire salaries means in effect that the senior drivers are essentially eating their young. This will only set the stage for a "what about me"
mentality when they get a bit of union power.
In addition, Air Canada in structuring ACE and Jazz so that at least in pay if not in reality they are two separate entities, have created a poisonous work environment. It's had 20 years to fester, and they've done sfa to mitigate it. It was bad enough when it was red team vs blue team. Now they're just a CRM nightmare.
If I really felt the urge to drive bigger iron, I'd go WJ.
I firmly believe they are after the younger guys who will give them no trouble. Theres not too many guys out there with a decent bit of time in their logbooks who would be able to afford the drop in salary or even have the inclination to start at the bottom again. They will certainly attract the young college kids who will see the starting wage as being above average on what they could make on doing something else.
For me I will stick with my Instructing part time in order to have a semi decent lifestyle.
For me I will stick with my Instructing part time in order to have a semi decent lifestyle.
The thought of getting on a 320, knowing the FO has racked up 1000 hours scares the snot out of me. Whether hes the son of a AC Old man or not. So much for CRM, these new hires will be placed with more senior capts no doubt, to try and speed up the learning curve. So now some guy with 12,000 hours is looking across at a guy who is still wet behind the ears in his mind, you think thatll be a pleasant atmosphere to work in, one that promotes safty and open comunication? Back to "Gear up , Flap up Shut up" me thinks.
And what happened to coming up through the ranks? now if the kids got family inside he can squeze out a few students instructing at the McMaynerbery flying club, knock out his ATPL exams and hes good to go? Scary Scary thought.
And before anyone asks, Im still pounding the ground looking for my first gig, but I'd like to think I'm smart enough to smell a bad idea when it gets shat out.
And what happened to coming up through the ranks? now if the kids got family inside he can squeze out a few students instructing at the McMaynerbery flying club, knock out his ATPL exams and hes good to go? Scary Scary thought.
And before anyone asks, Im still pounding the ground looking for my first gig, but I'd like to think I'm smart enough to smell a bad idea when it gets shat out.
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twin turbines
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Right Seat Captain
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As much as it ticks off a bunch of folks, I have to say it's good for us guys not after an airline job. Take myself for example, trying to get into test flying. Of course I need a lot of operational experience before I even think of applying for a test pilot job. With all the young guys my age that'll supposedly go to AC, I have far less competition in all the other outfits I'd be looking at going.
On that note, I've noticed lately that many of the new pilots coming up have no interest in going to the airlines. It seems like a dying dream to me. Most people are looking to fly something that you actually get to fly. People seem more interested in making a career out of flying for Kenn Borek, Cargo, Instructing... The beginning of a major shift maybe? I don't know, maybe it's just a short term trend.
On that note, I've noticed lately that many of the new pilots coming up have no interest in going to the airlines. It seems like a dying dream to me. Most people are looking to fly something that you actually get to fly. People seem more interested in making a career out of flying for Kenn Borek, Cargo, Instructing... The beginning of a major shift maybe? I don't know, maybe it's just a short term trend.
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PC12's are better
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International standards
this may be a new thing to canada but it's a big wake up call to all of us. I'm a class 3 instructor / charter pilot and have just finished instructing 20 hrs of sim to a 19 yr old with less that 100 hts TT from the orient who will within the next yr be in the right seat of a 747 for cathay with less than 350 TT.
I feel that most of us are just going to have to sit back and shut up, there's nothing that we can do for the rest of the international market.
Look at the others who have a cadet program, info may not be quite 100% but close,
BA, Cathay, JAL, Ziaman airlines (china), British midland, Quantas, and god knows how many others from europe and North America and the orient. These are some of the most respected airlines in the industry, if it can work for them then I don't know what we have to worry about
WELCOME TO THE 21st CENTURY
the standards have been set and the canadian industry will have to adapt.
I personally believe that the europeans have it right, send the most junior piots into the most regimented / structured part of the industry with the most advanced and user friendly aircraft. you don't have the option of flying charter (BE10,.Navajo or otherwise) till you have time with the major airlines. sounds good to me.
I feel that most of us are just going to have to sit back and shut up, there's nothing that we can do for the rest of the international market.
Look at the others who have a cadet program, info may not be quite 100% but close,
BA, Cathay, JAL, Ziaman airlines (china), British midland, Quantas, and god knows how many others from europe and North America and the orient. These are some of the most respected airlines in the industry, if it can work for them then I don't know what we have to worry about
WELCOME TO THE 21st CENTURY
the standards have been set and the canadian industry will have to adapt.
I personally believe that the europeans have it right, send the most junior piots into the most regimented / structured part of the industry with the most advanced and user friendly aircraft. you don't have the option of flying charter (BE10,.Navajo or otherwise) till you have time with the major airlines. sounds good to me.
1000 hours! Hell, that's 5 times more experience than cadets getting f/o positions across the pond. If it works for major airlines over there, why not here? It's all about supply and demand, obviously not about experience.tdawe wrote:The thought of getting on a 320, knowing the FO has racked up 1000 hours scares the snot out of me.
Never point your aircraft to some place your brain hasn't already been 5 minutes earlier.
Just so you know, the ab initio program has been part of major airlines like Cathay, BA, Quantas etc......for years and years. It's true, they try and promote local interest. However, they go through a stringent process just to be accepted into the program and then spend years getting trained. Your student will not be in the right seat for Cathay for a long time. Once he finishes his training in Adelaide Australia, which will take at least two years, he will be an S/O for at least 3-4 years, then move over to the right seat, if he's deemed ready. So as you can see, only after about 6 years will he be where you said he'll be. And the left seat will take about 15 years from the time he sets foot in the building. Don't listen to the rumors.
Someone earlier mentioned flying with a new hire on the 320 at AC. With the new pay group, there will not be a new hire on the 320, so you won't have to worry. It'll take at least a few years to move over......
If you were to pick up the phone and it was AC offering you a job, I'm sure you'd take all you've said back. They will be hiring a cross section of people, but are looking for the best long term candidate, but it's not going to be perfect.
Deskgo is right........don't be a bi-a-ch.
Ciao
Someone earlier mentioned flying with a new hire on the 320 at AC. With the new pay group, there will not be a new hire on the 320, so you won't have to worry. It'll take at least a few years to move over......
If you were to pick up the phone and it was AC offering you a job, I'm sure you'd take all you've said back. They will be hiring a cross section of people, but are looking for the best long term candidate, but it's not going to be perfect.
Deskgo is right........don't be a bi-a-ch.
Ciao
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Billy Bob1
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I think its horsesh*t that all these low time guys are getting the call. For those of us that busted our balls the past five years to take layoffs and demotions just to keep flying and keep the pipedream alive I think we deserve a shot. I don't understand this B-scale but the starting salary at Air Canada is not much of a pay cut for me.
Ryanair and Easy have hired guys with 250 hrs and the Frozen ATPL.
Theres a lot more low time guys in Europe sitting in the right seat of airliners. Ryanair have started hiring Captains from the States in order to keep up with the demand. Their salaries are also superb compared to Canada although the cost of living is higher. I have often thought of going back to Europe but the thought of 14 exams and more training scares the hell out of me.
Theres a lot more low time guys in Europe sitting in the right seat of airliners. Ryanair have started hiring Captains from the States in order to keep up with the demand. Their salaries are also superb compared to Canada although the cost of living is higher. I have often thought of going back to Europe but the thought of 14 exams and more training scares the hell out of me.
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cedar tree
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What does Air Can's mngt see that we don't?
Intellivision made me a pilot.
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duplicate2
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Re: >>>
$$$$$!big cedar tree wrote:What does Air Can's mngt see that we don't?
Ditto.Billy Bob1 wrote:I think its horsesh*t that all these low time guys are getting the call. For those of us that busted our balls the past five years to take layoffs and demotions just to keep flying and keep the pipedream alive I think we deserve a shot.
Things were percieved to be done a certain way for years and it was well understood the final curtain call went to people like you first. (Busted balls and all)
No where did anyone see this coming. It's not fair they have changed the 'rules' of 'understanding' without prior notice. Try to keep your chin up and morale going...perhaps AC was never in the cards for you. Don't be bitter about it. (said in a soft, understanding tone of voice) If it's worth the fight...then fight for it. However, don't spend another 5 years chasing a 'pipedream' that may or may never happen.
Besides...they operate that Euro-Trash recycled paper made aircraft.
Would you like some wine with all that cheese.....
You guys better suck it up or go out and make it happen or at least have some patience. All in good time. If you start comparing yourselves to others you'll be popping prozac before you know it. There will always be situations that might not make sense or seem fair or just, but who really cares? Make the best of your own situation.
Every airline is different.......it might be difficult for China to find people interested. Other companies such as Cathay or BA have many people knocking down there door to sign up for the cadet program.
BTW, it would be a complete rarity for Ryanair and Easy jet to hire 250 hr pilots, but it might be because it's much more difficult to build time in Europe.
It's fine to vent, but don't be so quick to judge.
You guys better suck it up or go out and make it happen or at least have some patience. All in good time. If you start comparing yourselves to others you'll be popping prozac before you know it. There will always be situations that might not make sense or seem fair or just, but who really cares? Make the best of your own situation.
Every airline is different.......it might be difficult for China to find people interested. Other companies such as Cathay or BA have many people knocking down there door to sign up for the cadet program.
BTW, it would be a complete rarity for Ryanair and Easy jet to hire 250 hr pilots, but it might be because it's much more difficult to build time in Europe.
It's fine to vent, but don't be so quick to judge.
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monkeyspankmasterflex
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Well put G.
Demographics seem to be the most logical explanation for bypassing the higher time guys. It does seem unfair, but from what I understand there are also some higher time hirees on the new courses aswell.
Can anyone explain the "ACPA concession for new hire salaries"/B scale? Other threads have talked about 39K x 5yrs. I beleive the old pay structure only had 2 yrs of set salary. If you're in your 30's and already making a decent buck with a family and a mortgage the old pay scale was enough of a deterant. No hurry, no worries...
Demographics seem to be the most logical explanation for bypassing the higher time guys. It does seem unfair, but from what I understand there are also some higher time hirees on the new courses aswell.
Can anyone explain the "ACPA concession for new hire salaries"/B scale? Other threads have talked about 39K x 5yrs. I beleive the old pay structure only had 2 yrs of set salary. If you're in your 30's and already making a decent buck with a family and a mortgage the old pay scale was enough of a deterant. No hurry, no worries...
