Can you help me sort out a recency question?

[Cobra64]

I hold a CPL license, endorsed with a PPC (last ride 2 months ago), multi turbine, actively employed.

I would like to do some recreational flying in a SEL machine that lives on the field.

I satisfy the 5 and 2 year requirements, no problem.

So...I am legal to go up in the SEL by myself. However... it might be prudent to go up with the machines owner for the first flight to pick up some knowledge and make sure I don't bend anything. For us to do this, and me be in the left seat he would be a passenger right? So I would need to satisfy the 5/5 in 6 requirement. And to do this I'd need to go up with someone who holds an instructor rating?

What am I missing here?

[duramaxguy]

The biggest thing is the insurance. You can't just jump in someone's private plane and go for a burn by yourself. Regardless of whether you have time on type or not. Your name and license has to be on the insurance and most insurance companies require an hour or two of a " check out" before they give you the ok.

[photofly]

For us to do this, and me be in the left seat he would be a passenger right?

Not if you both agree in advance that he's the PIC, which he can be in any seat.

If you're worried about your recency to carry your own passengers, the requirement is that you perform the 5 takeoffs and landings. There's no requirement for you to be PIC or receiving instruction from the holder of an instructor rating while you do them.

[AirFrame]

Do the 5 takeoffs and landings have to be on the same type of aircraft? ie. if you've done 5 takeoffs and landings at work in the last X months, isn't that good enough?

[AOW]

5 take offs and landings in order to carry pax must be in the same category and class. So if you fly a multi engine aircraft, you are not current on single engine land aeroplanes.

Fortunately, when I had to do a precautionary shutdown one flight, TC didn't fine me for landing with passengers on board when I wasn't pax current in single engine aircraft!

[Cobra64]

For us to do this, and me be in the left seat he would be a passenger right?

Not if you both agree in advance that he's the PIC, which he can be in any seat.

If you're worried about your recency to carry your own passengers, the requirement is that you perform the 5 takeoffs and landings. There's no requirement for you to be PIC or receiving instruction from the holder of an instructor rating while you do them.

Ok, this makes sense then. Thanks for the insight.

[ahramin]

As photofly says, the owner can take you for a flight, with him as PIC. If the owner has a CPL or ATPL, you can log it as dual and count the flight towards your 5 in 6, if not you don't log it. I believe the 5 in 6 does have to be logged as a crew member, so PIC SIC or dual. That's why the CARs state you need to keep a logbook for currency. If you aren't planning on taking passengers though it's a moot point.

My insurance allows anyone with 25 hours on type to fly my plane as long as I'm satisfied with their proficiency. Many other insurers will require a checkout with an instructor before they will add you to the insurance but will accept a checkout from a CPL if you ask them.

[ScottS]

It all depends on the insurance. I think our says anyone with a valid instructor rating, or CPL with x amount of total hours and x amount on category and class. Everyone else it is a check out and then limited liability until 25 hours on type.

[photofly]

. I believe the 5 in 6 does have to be logged as a crew member, so PIC SIC or dual.

Interesting point. Theres no definition of "loggable" time - we keep track of the hours we need for the various ratings or licences or currency, each of which has its own requirements. Since the recency requirement for the carriage of passengers are to perform the takeoffs and landings (glaringly absent is anything requiring "as PIC" or crew at all) I'd say that if you handled the controls for the takeoff and landing then they count towards the requirements, they should be logged, and so are automatically loggable.

The flight time associated with the takeoffs and landings when you are not a PIC, SIC, or dual, doesn't count towards any recency, rating or licence - you can't add it to any flight time totals - so there's no benefit to logging it.

It seems strange to be able to claim any kind of credit for parts of a flight when you weren't PIC or with an instructor, etc., but there it is in the plain English of the CARs.

[ahramin]

Well I'll admit your interpretation is possibly correct, but I'll stick to mine just in case.

[HiFlyChick]

... Theres no definition of "loggable" time - we keep track of the hours we need for the various ratings or licences or currency, each of which has its own requirements. Since the recency requirement for the carriage of passengers are to perform the takeoffs and landings (glaringly absent is anything requiring "as PIC" or crew at all) I'd say that if you handled the controls for the takeoff and landing then they count towards the requirements, they should be logged, and so are automatically loggable.

The flight time associated with the takeoffs and landings when you are not a PIC, SIC, or dual, doesn't count towards any recency, rating or licence - you can't add it to any flight time totals - so there's no benefit to logging it.

It seems strange to be able to claim any kind of credit for parts of a flight when you weren't PIC or with an instructor, etc., but there it is in the plain English of the CARs.

What do you mean there's no definition of loggable time?! Loggable time is time that you are legally allowed to put in your logbook because you meet the criteria for acting as PIC or SIC or can log dual. The hours that we track for ratings may have other additional criteria on them, but in all cases they still need to be loggable.

The reason the mention of "as PIC" is glaringly absent, as you say, is that it goes without saying that the time must be loggable - you can't count unloggable time towards anything - that's just common sense.

[photofly]

There's no "it goes without saying" in the CARs. And precious little common sense.

401.05(1) mentions being PIC or SIC.

401.05(2)(b)(1) - the recency requirement to carry passengers - with the addition of two words - could have but quite specifically doesn't. You merely have to "peform" the takeoffs and landings. If the drafters of the regulation wanted you to be acting as, say, PIC at the time they would have said so.

Don't invent your own rules.

[HiFlyChick]

OK, so maybe the two issues are (1) without time being logged you have no record of having done the landings, and (2) if you couldn't log it, you're probably not legal to land it so you're putting yourself between a rock and a hard place. A flight instructor can let a student land because he's under dual instruction, but you can't just go out flying and let your friend land your plane.

[photofly]

You can just go out flying and let your friend land your plane.

You're interpreting the CARs backwards. Flights don't count towards a rating or recency because they're "loggable". Instead, flights become loggable when they meet the specifics of the requirements towards a rating or recency (and must then be logged). That's CAR401.08.

There are plenty of situations where dual flight time can be provided under the instruction of someone who doesn't hold an instructor rating: Instrument Rating, Floatplane etc. Such time must be logged.

The recency requirements don't need instruction from anyone. But they do require you to perform a certain number of landings. They don't place any restriction on who has to be PiC at the time, or what qualifications the PiC must have.

If I go flying with a friend and he's PIC and he tells me to perform five takeoffs and landings and I do so then we must agree by the plain English meaning of the words that I performed the takeoffs and landings. The recency requirement is therefore met. CAR401.08(b) then requires me to log those takeoffs and landings.

[Redneck_pilot86]

There is no CAR requiring a checkout. If your licence states single engine land, then you can legally hop in it and go (by yourself, the requirements for pax carrying stand). This means a guy who has never flown anything but the flight school 150 can just jump in a 185, or a beaver, or a caravan and go. What prevents people from doing this is the insurance. This varies from policy to policy.

As to the original question, you can just hop in it and go, legally, as you state. Depending on the type, your buddy should be ok to operate as PIC from the right seat whilst you fly from the left (some types require the PIC to be left seat, in which case you are skunked). Once you have your 5 t/o and landings, you can take over as PIC as long as the requirements in the insurance policy are met.