feelings on air canada hiring

No more BS · Post by **No more BS** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:08 am

One word: DISCRIMINATION.

Definition from the online dictionary:
"unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice."

The web site for the definition:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=DISCRIMINATION

To hire a person because they are of a certain sex or a visible minority, I can go by and understand (with a bit of patience), but to me, if a person with 2000hrs or so can get the job done, I sure as hell can do it too! (I have more than 6000 and very good references...)

Hopefully somebody will go somewhere with that...maybe in court even.

Heard once that it was already done, somebody threatened the hiring board to bring up a lawsuit if they didn't hire a person and they got that certain person hired...

Cheers.

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:38 am

Gelbisch:

I agree with most of what you are saying, but training someone with 250hrs on steamdriven equipment is a totally different story than learning everything required to get cut loose on line these days. This from someone that was at AC for 35 years and retired recentll from the training department.

As far as the subject at hand, I am not really bitter but I am confused. When I had 2000hrs, even 4000hrs Air Canada laughed at me. Now it is like I am supposed to be embarrased for having 7500hrs!!!

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:48 am

These planes fly themselves. All you need is a F/A and the autopilot.

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:58 am

I hope you higher time guys get a crack and soon. Be really funny if your FO's at your current employer get seniority numbers hundreds in front of you. That would be hilariouos. Nepotism is alive and well but not all you AC kids can get the break as this would prove to be illegal!! But as most have said at least there is hiring going on and personally I think everyone in given time will have their chance.

Like many have said this is not the same job as it once was. AC has streamlined and will continue to do so. Anyone who thinks that terms and conditions over time at the airline will not erode are fooling themselves. Still a very good job by Canadian standards but the good old days are gone as they are almost everywhere.

Over here in Europe and in particular the UK experienced pilots are getting to be a rare breed. One UK domestic carrier (Q400's & E195's) is so short of pilots that the DFO is travelling to all the flying clubs in the country to meet young pilots doing their licences to convince them to apply to his airline. Wow. 737/A320 commands are as easy to get as King Air commands back home. Wide body commands are harder to get but there are guys out there in their early 30's flying in the left seat of 747/A340's.

Message? Anyone who does not get the call, misses at the interview or has generally just had enough start looking over here. You may not need a Euro passport as Ryan air is taking yanks now.

Good luck!

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:02 am

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:06 am

With your line of thinking 330, I'm sure you won't mind if these new hires with 2000 hrs take over your seniority number. Why should you be in front of them? Let me guess, you have more experience then them? You started flying before they were done grade school? You busted your ass off enduring shit jobs year after year? You ate KD and wieners for years because you couldn't afford anything else? You drove a rusted out shit box that always seemed to pull into the local LCBO cause your career was stagnent? Stop looking down on the people your stepping on, you were once one of them.

I can now say I know someone who wasn't done their flight training back when I was with Canada 3000 who is now the proud owner of an Air Canada suit. I liked the hiring policy more when IH was looking after it.

The only reason pilots with 250 hrs get hired on large equipment elsewhere in the world is because there is no one else to hire.

Red1 · Post by **Red1** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:22 am

Patience you must have, only the begining is this.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:42 am

I must say, I'm sooooooooo tempted to jump on the bandwagon here are start to rant, but what good will it do? AC will hire whom they want, whatever there reasons. Patience is a must, and bitching about what we cannot control will get us no where except fighting amongst eachother.

Cheers.

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:07 am

hey jet jock wannbe check out the ryan air web site
http://www.ryanair.com and for the spare 50 on the visa you can apply.
worth a shot and the pay seems good when converted back to canadian.

keep dreamin and working the slackers and naysayers will defeat themselves.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:24 am

I just want them to hire KAG so I can have the easy money job he's on.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:21 pm

Easy money..LMAO. Haven't your read the sched, I'm YEV bound again. See you in mid AUG.

...and Yeah, I want AC to hire me too...

Cheers.

A330 · Post by **A330** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:05 pm

I completely agree...I think AC should be looking after their own hiring. Things always get worse when a third party gets involved and they don't understand the nuances of the avaition industry. I honestly don't think 2000 hrs, is enough to be hired at AC right now with so many others with much more experienced ready and willing.

I don't work for AC anymore and gave up my number, so they will be calling one more person as a result of my departure.

They will be hiring hundreds in the next few years-most of you will be working there and likely worrying about something else.

Whipline, if you were with C3, I'm sure you'll get the opportunity. I'm not looking down, I'm looking over.

groundpilot · Post by **groundpilot** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:17 am

Bitterness....bitterness...bitterness

It seems that a lot of high time people seem to have the attitude they deserve an interview with AC. To me it seems like AC looks at a lot more than just HOURS for an interview. Sure experience means a lot in aviation but since Air Canada is a professional organization they also look at other factors...

Like education, second language ability, and attitude. ANYONE can fly a ERJ or CRJ. In the states they hire pilots with 600hr TT with their time being entirely PISTON. So I am sure a "low time" pilot with 2000hrs TT can handle it too.

Look at the big picture...what can you add to AC? If your thinking just occupying a right seat with 6000 hrs TT you might want to check your attitude cause yes the younger folks with a different outlook may get ahead.

... · Post by **...** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:38 am

Red1 wrote:Patience you must have, only the begining is this.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:58 pm

*Never mind.

Campanola · Post by **Campanola** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:37 pm

To my point of view, the question is not if low timer pilot can do the job. Of course they can, but with a lower level of safety (for a certain period of time) than with an experienced pilot. To my experience, low timer pilot usually have weakness for IFR and situational awareness. A co-pilot is not supposed to be a student pilot; he is supposed to be almost a co-captain. So 2000 hr guys… I hope it’s not 2000 hr as an instructor on light twins.

So, the point is not why they hire low timer pilot, it’s why they seems to avoid High timer pilots… if it’s what they do. Because the pool of good High timer pilots is large enough I think.

Most Airlines (May I say all?) in the world don’t avoid high timer guys. They hire low timer guys because they have no choice. I really wonder why Air Canada should do differently.

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:20 am

Sadly, the goal posts moved yet again.

Pilots start down a career path that will hopefully lead them to their goal. It used to be you needed experience. Then you needed to go to the regionals. Now some HR firm has come up with some new standards.

Pilots are finding out that the path they were told to follow is now not the right one. To add insult to injury, they may now never get in (too many hours and not enough education), so I can understand the frustration.

Personally, I think AC's pilot requirement is too great to totally ignore the higher time guys. (Unless they start visiting flight schools to find folks with fresh commercial/multi IFRs

)

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:29 am

Smitty wrote:Unless they start visiting flight schools to find folks with fresh commercial/multi IFRs

Well, that day may yet come. Not that I'm a staunch believer in the whole pilot shortage myth, but if you look at the projected number of guys/gals they'll need...

Does anyone feel/know that/if flight training has slowed over the last few years? Is there a slower supply of folks being pumped into the marketplace, or has it continued to grind along at a fairly steady rate?

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:10 am

Mini-me wrote:To my point of view, the question is not if low timer pilot can do the job. Of course they can, but with a lower level of safety (for a certain period of time) than with an experienced pilot. To my experience, low timer pilot usually have weakness for IFR and situational awareness. A co-pilot is not supposed to be a student pilot; he is supposed to be almost a co-captain. So 2000 hr guys… I hope it’s not 2000 hr as an instructor on light twins.

I know a lot of pilot in Canada with 2000 hours on the C150 almost all local flight!!!! does it count?
Why in Europe pilot fly with less hours and their safety record are the same as here then?
I think you misunderstud the industry here, soon you will need 500hrs to fly 320 and 4000 to fly a beaver!!!!
Small companies hire people for ramp/fly job asking an impossible amount of hours so they can underpay you!!!!
My best friend in Europe got hired with 400 hours on a Lear45, he makes more money than 2 captain on a dash 8 here in Canada, safety is the #1 priority in his company, he his treated professionaly and payed as a professional, here a lot of kids with 1000 hors and a lot of potentials are treated like amateurs

Campanola · Post by **Campanola** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:15 am

evalle wrote: I know a lot of pilot in Canada with 2000 hours on the C150 almost all local flight!!!! does it count?

To my opinion...No. I would prefer a guy with 2000 hr on light twin for charter or sched. I believe in experience related to flight time, but you must look at the type of flight time. That's what most companies do (they look at your resume, your log book, they ask questions). I had an Interview at Cathay Pacific, and that’s what they did.

evalle wrote: Why in Europe pilot fly with less hours and their safety record are the same as here then?

You can't make direct link like that. If Air France or Swiss Air crash here, they will increase accident records her. We don't fly in the same environment. Training is not the same. In Canada, we operate aicraft from flaot plane to big Jets. We don't have the same ATCs. Some company have low timer pilot, but they are cruise relief pilot for a while. I mean, I believe that the level of safety is higher with experienced pilot than with inexperienced pilot for the same environment. I know by personal experience that a bad co-pilot can increase my workload even in normal situation. But anyway, that’s not the point. We have experienced pilot her, why Air Canada don’t want them?

I don't know... Maybe they want pilots who will accept easily lower conditions without creating problems. But, I'm sure it's not for safety reason.

evalle wrote: I think you misunderstud the industry here, soon you will need 500hrs to fly 320 and 4000 to fly a beaver!!!!
Small companies hire people for ramp/fly job asking an impossible amount of hours so they can underpay you!!!!

I would say small companies ask for higher timer (not impossible amount of hours because they find) and they can underpay because there is too many pilot on the canadian market. Often, I think they want higher timer guys because of insurance (pay less).

Campanola · Post by **Campanola** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:59 am

evalle wrote: My best friend in Europe got hired with 400 hours on a Lear45, he makes more money than 2 captain on a dash 8 here in Canada

Is he a canadian? How did he make that?!

Fleet80 · Post by **Fleet80** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:11 am

You guys are *&$ng nuts! There are 8, count 'em 8, new-hire pilots on course representing a spectrum of talent, ages and backgrounds. As usual, one token female made it, but I note that she has far more experience than any of her colleagues, (ex-airforce, bilingual and current Boeing captain) yup, unqualified girls are just screwing all you over-qualified white guys out of their rightful jobs. RELAX, the industry is booming or haven't you noticed! There are now hundreds of jobs at Jazz, AC, Westjet, skyservice, Zoom, and every cargo, corporate, scheduled, float and contract operator out there is crapping their drawers trying to get qualified bums in seats. Enjoy the wave, get your resumes out, and be happy with the sun in your face and a great airplane under your ass. Stop your childish, ignorant sniping about AC kids or visible minorities, and ask yourself "why would ANY company want me?" From what I've seen in these postings, the answer rightfully should be - "they don't!"

Campanola · Post by **Campanola** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:39 am

What?! You mean this rumor was based on only 8 pilots and some of them were Boeing Captain? It was about time that someone brings fresh information here!

That’s funny how rumor in aviation can divert from reality.

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:35 am

Mini-me wrote:
evalle wrote: My best friend in Europe got hired with 400 hours on a Lear45, he makes more money than 2 captain on a dash 8 here in Canada
Is he a canadian? How did he make that?!

He is italian but he had the US CPL, he went back to Italy, convert his licence, knock at some doors.... he is going to be FO for a while, his Captain is very experienced but he is happy because is learning a lot, the company is fantastic and the money are great!!!
I had an instructor here in Canada that went to fly in Europe because here was making 38K/year on a 737....

V1 · Post by V1 » Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:59 am

I agree with Fleet80. The amount of b*tching and bitterness won't get you anywhere, and i wouldn't want to hire or fly with anyone that has this kind of of attitude. The hiring has just started, and they have a few more years to go, so be patient. I think it's fantastic that the industry is on the up swing, enjoy it while it lasts!