Weight and balance

[pelmet]

Has anybody ever flown a light aircraft without doing a weight and balance. I have many times. But what is the actual legal requirement for your own private aircraft and for renting an aircraft from a flight school.

[PilotDAR]

The flight school aircraft will be commercial, and therefore bound by operational requirements for weight and balance control. If you are the pilot of an aircraft bound by a weight and balance control system, you are bound by that system too. For the private aircraft, you, as the pilot, are required to assure that the aircraft is operated within the W&B limits. Completing a W&B for the flight is one way, and certainly the best way of demonstrating that has been done.

If I have any doubt about W&B, I'll have a written document to record it. Certain aircraft I have flown have little "surprises" built into the W&B, so if I don't know the plane well, I'll have a prepared W&B. Understand that the aft C of G limit is likely established by the ability to recover a spin, so behind the aft limit, if you accidentally spin it, it may not be recoverable.

[photofly]

It would be wrong to assume that because the cg is within the allowed limits that a spin will be recoverable. The aft cg limit is established by the stick-fixed and stick-free neutral points, with a sufficient margin of safety from which ever is more forward. That gurantees you (only) that you have positive pitch stability in normal flight.

Even if the cg is well forward of the aft cg limit a spin can still be (or become) unrecoverable in many airplanes. Or the airplane may never have been tested for its spin recovery characteristics, so nobody knows.

Your responsibility is to keep the plane within the prescribed limits. You're not required to demonstrate that to anyone. (Although the accident enquiry board will certainly check.) If you regularly fly the same (your own) airplane with the same loads it doesn't make a lot of sense to repeat the same calculations time and time again. But if you fly a different load then you should do the calculations to make sure you meet your responsibilities.

If renting from a flight school, do what the flight school requires.

[PilotDAR]

Even if the cg is well forward of the aft cg limit a spin can still be (or become) unrecoverable in many airplanes. Or the airplane may never have been tested for its spin recovery characteristics, so nobody knows.

For twins, non certified types or certified aircraft held in deliberately for more than a whole turn, this could be true.

For certified single engine (yes, right up to a Caravan, I've done it) they are all spin tested, and demonstrate recovery at gross weight, and extreme approved C of G limits - or else, they don't get certified or STC approved, if it's a mod. This includes floatplanes and skiplanes.

Certain types enticed misloading by space available. Even the modest C 150 could be misloaded, as the aft area of the baggage area is only allowed 40 pounds. The earliest models had no baggage area there, so it was not a problem. But, once Cessna increased that space (associated with the change to electric flaps), misloading became a risk. The later Cessna 310's had a generous nose baggage compartment, but it was deceptive, little weight could actually be placed there. For the 310, I did the W&B for each configuration - no assumptions!

[C-GKNT]

A proper checkout in an aircraft should include running various W&B scenarios including several that result in being out of the envelope. For the private aircraft that I fly frequently, the majority of my flights are not even close to being out of the envelope. For these flights I do not do a formal W&B and I do not believe there is legal requirement to do so. However, if I am flying an unusual load or configuration, I will certainly do one. Unless something bad happens, nobody cares for a private flight.

Glenn

[trey kule]

Unless something bad happens, nobody cares for a private flight

Perhaps it would be better to care so nothing bad does happen...

There is an extremely easy and cheap calculator called a seegee (I think)that is the name. You can google it under CAVU
Cheap, easy to use, aircraft specific, and it takes about 30 seconds to do a small aircraft balance and weight. Even quicker if you need to move things around . Keep it in the aircraft , out of the sun.
Anyone who owns an airplane should have one.
Then this talk becomes whether a pilot cares enough to spend less than a minute to confirm all is within limits
Btw..I have nothing to do with the company that makes the calculator...but I think there are enough pilots around who are familiar with them who will agree they are excelkent.

[photofly]

WnB Pro is a very good App that does the same thing. Takes two seconds to use.

[CpnCrunch]

WnB Pro is a very good App that does the same thing. Takes two seconds to use.

Why pay $5 when you can get W+B apps for free? I use E6B+ myself.

[pelmet]

Thanks,

So just to confirm, when renting an aircraft from a flight school/flying club, etc, I have to actually have a written weight and balance completed.

[photofly]

It's entirely up to the flight school, there are no universal rules.

[pelmet]

I am talking from a CAR's point of view.

[photofly]

There's no CAR applicable to private flights that says you have to have a written weight and balance for the flight. Part VII of the CARS may say something different, but flight schools are governed under Part IV, and renters from flight schools and clubs are not commercial operators and are not bound by Part VII. If the flight school or club requires a written W&B for the flight they should let you know. Either way, you are not in violation of any regulation if you don't have one.

[praveen4143]

If you get ramp checked and "The Minister" (aka a TC inspector) or a peace officer asks, you should be able to prove that you are indeed flying legally within W&B limits, there is IMHO not any legal requirement to complete one each flight. Like others said before, might be a flight school policy though.

[Vanguard]

1

[lownslow]

you should be able to prove that you are indeed flying legally within W&B limits

What if there is no published W&B info, as in the case of a homebuilt or truly prehistoric certified plane?

[NotDirty!]

What if there is no published W&B info, as in the case of a homebuilt or truly prehistoric certified plane?

Would flying it and not dying be sufficient proof that you were safely within the limits?

[photofly]

you should be able to prove that you are indeed flying legally within W&B limits

What if there is no published W&B info, as in the case of a homebuilt or truly prehistoric certified plane?

The only regulation applicable to private flying in respect of weight and c-g is the following:

602.07 No person shall operate an aircraft unless it is operated in accordance with the operating limitations
(a) set out in the aircraft flight manual, where an aircraft flight manual is required by the applicable standards of airworthiness;
(b) set out in a document other than the aircraft flight manual, where use of that document is authorized pursuant to Part VII;
(c) indicated by markings or placards required pursuant to section 605.05; or
(d) prescribed by the competent authority of the state of registry of the aircraft.

You should be able to figure out wether that regulation applies and if does how to apply it, in any given case.

[pelmet]

Wait a second. Why would you fly without doing a W/B...It literally takes not much more than 5 mins a light aircraft. Stop being lazy and complete it. Really shows your airman-ship and kudos to your Instructor.

Rather than discussing if it's legal or not..lets discuss if it is the smart thing to do or not. Safety first.

Because the question was about the legality, that's why.

I have flown a bunch of small types over the last few years and rarely do a weight and balance after the checkout if I am familiar with the aircraft.

Flew a 172 a couple of months ago with two people on board. Fuel was at half for a small cross country flight. No doubt the fuel was enough but filled up anyways but no W&B.

Do you think I was unsafe? Of course not. It is called experience on type.

To be honest with you, on the usual long runway ops that I do, I am more worried about balance than weight.

[Posthumane]

I have a few "typical" weight and balance calcs for my plane that stay in my flight bag, so I generally don't calculate them again every time I fly. I have one for just myself and little baggage (typical practice or sightseeing flight), one for my wife and I and a weekend's worth of baggage (typical visiting family flight), one for myself and a heavier friend/instructor (sightseeing or dual training flight), done and full and empty tanks to show that it doesn't cross any CG boundaries. I don't feel I need to redo those calculations for each flight since the laws of physics haven't changed in the last couple of years. If I'm flying with additional passengers or an unusual baggage load then I'll do the W&B calc.

[upintheair_]

Wait a second. Why would you fly without doing a W/B...It literally takes not much more than 5 mins a light aircraft. Stop being lazy and complete it. Really shows your airman-ship and kudos to your Instructor.

Oh and yes if you get ramp'd you would definitely be in a pickle. Rather than discussing if it's legal or not..lets discuss if it is the smart thing to do or not. Safety first.

Well to be fair, by the 60th time you've flown the same aircraft with full tanks and your instructor... it's not like the W&B is going to change.

If you're even remotely unsure or have a configuration that you haven't flown before, by all means do one every time.

[piperdriver]

If you get ramp checked and "The Minister" (aka a TC inspector) or a peace officer asks, you should be able to prove that you are indeed flying legally within W&B limits, there is IMHO not any legal requirement to complete one each flight. Like others said before, might be a flight school policy though.

Agreed, and where I fly getting ramp checked by a TC inspector is in the same realm as seeing a unicorn.

[Vanguard]

Because the question was about the legality, that's why.

I have flown a bunch of small types over the last few years and rarely do a weight and balance after the checkout if I am familiar with the aircraft.

Flew a 172 a couple of months ago with two people on board. Fuel was at half for a small cross country flight. No doubt the fuel was enough but filled up anyways but no W&B.

Do you think I was unsafe? Of course not. It is called experience on type.

To be honest with you, on the usual long runway ops that I do, I am more worried about balance than weight.

Legality requires that you do it.

I fly a B1900, besides carrying cargo/passengers in random quantities...sometimes we even repo empty with just crew...I am highly experienced on the aircraft so should I just go? No. To a point W/B is done for each leg of flight.

I disagree with your "experience on type theory" and in my own opinion I do consider you unsafe. Maybe the Instructor in me would never let my student lead into this habit ...This is how accidents occur and General aviation pilots start picking up bad habits. This maybe a small thing but it leads to other things being overlooked. You're obviously capable of making your own choices but I suggest you take a read on how many accidents in GA have also occur due to false loading/no planning.

[CpnCrunch]

I disagree with your "experience on type theory" and in my own opinion I do consider you unsafe. Maybe the Instructor in me would never let my student lead into this habit ...This is how accidents occur and General aviation pilots start picking up bad habits. This maybe a small thing but it leads to other things being overlooked. You're obviously capable of making your own choices but I suggest you take a read on how many accidents in GA have also occur due to false loading/no planning.

So do you do a density altitude/landing/takeoff distance calculation when landing on a 6000ft runway at sealevel when it's 20C in a 172? If not, you're just getting into a bad habit!

[photofly]

Legality requires that you do it.

Er, no, actually it doesn't. For your Part VII operations perhaps. But not for private flying.

I fly a B1900, besides carrying cargo/passengers in random quantities...sometimes we even repo empty with just crew...I am highly experienced on the aircraft so should I just go? No. To a point W/B is done for each leg of flight.

I disagree with your "experience on type theory" and in my own opinion I do consider you unsafe. Maybe the Instructor in me would never let my student lead into this habit ...

One hopes you teach your students to learn, remember and respect the regulations that apply to any flights, and to treat each aircraft type as is appropriate. One hopes you don't teach your students to pretend a c172 is a B1900. Or a Boeing 737.

[PilotDAR]

I like to think that a "good" pilot is one who considers the circumstances of the proposed flight, and conducts a review of appropriate depth for the affected factors of the flight. There are times I record a W&B for flights in my aircraft, and other times I rely on my experience. There are times that I require that I witness the weighing of the aircraft prior to the calculation of the new W&B, before I will fly it. It's all a matter of my level of comfort with the circumstances.

For those who feel so confident about their completed W&B for the flight, how confident are you about the basic W&B for the aircraft being correct? It's a worthy exercise, but is it based on accurate data? How can you be sure? If you're accidentally out of limits, how would you know? I have been - which is why I insist on witnessing some weighings....