Suncor flight dept shutting down?

[ba31pilot]

What I have been hearing is that the Suncor flt dept is not shutting down. Suncor appears to be consolidating all of their subcharter work with one company...namely WestJet. All of the smaller carriers they have been using will now be replaced with one carrier.

[FICU]

If true it will affect Air North unfortunately. Westjet is hitting them in Whitehorse and now in charter work.

[privateer]

You can't really beat WestJet's cost structure. It's really a drop in the bucket as far as costs go.

[CID]

Actually Canadian oil companies get a lower oil price than most other places due to bottle necks in getting it out, typically oil coming out of western Canada is $5-10 under the widely traded and more we'll know WTI (western Texas intermediate) so before you go spouting your mouth off look into it a bit. The only way to get more money for the oil is to build refineries in Canada so we don't have to get it out and can help with situations like where we are in now where our oil has to make its way down to the gulf coast to get refined and then sent back up to Canada as gas.

I'm speaking of domestic prices. I understand that the problem is global but what do I care if Canadian oil companies gouge other countries?

With respect to refineries, Canada had MANY refineries in the past but after the FTA was passed, investors concentrated their processing funding in the US where the larger markets are and their raw material funding to Canada where many of the raw materials are concentrated. That applies to other raw/material/processed goods situations like meat. We used to have many meat processing plants in Canada but most of that is gone. Now we are at the mercy of the US and other countries to process our commodities.

Now back to the local fuel pump. The distributors sell gasoline and fuel oils for a price that is partly indexed to OPEC prices (for the crude) and the oil companies have justified it by saying that it's the market price. Many commodities in Canada are at least somewhat normalized through marketing boards or other means but no such stabilization exists for oil in the domestic market. No, I'm not a communist I just have a problem with being gouged. I don't suggest a "Venezuela" solution where citizens there pay pennies per gallon but why do I pay so much for a commodity that our country produces so readily and from an industry that is so highly subsidized?

[tbaylx]

Actually Canadian oil companies get a lower oil price than most other places due to bottle necks in getting it out, typically oil coming out of western Canada is $5-10 under the widely traded and more we'll know WTI (western Texas intermediate) so before you go spouting your mouth off look into it a bit. The only way to get more money for the oil is to build refineries in Canada so we don't have to get it out and can help with situations like where we are in now where our oil has to make its way down to the gulf coast to get refined and then sent back up to Canada as gas.

I'm speaking of domestic prices. I understand that the problem is global but what do I care if Canadian oil companies gouge other countries?

With respect to refineries, Canada had MANY refineries in the past but after the FTA was passed, investors concentrated their processing funding in the US where the larger markets are and their raw material funding to Canada where many of the raw materials are concentrated. That applies to other raw/material/processed goods situations like meat. We used to have many meat processing plants in Canada but most of that is gone. Now we are at the mercy of the US and other countries to process our commodities.

Now back to the local fuel pump. The distributors sell gasoline and fuel oils for a price that is partly indexed to OPEC prices (for the crude) and the oil companies have justified it by saying that it's the market price. Many commodities in Canada are at least somewhat normalized through marketing boards or other means but no such stabilization exists for oil in the domestic market. No, I'm not a communist I just have a problem with being gouged. I don't suggest a "Venezuela" solution where citizens there pay pennies per gallon but why do I pay so much for a commodity that our country produces so readily and from an industry that is so highly subsidized?

Don't mistake gasoline for crude. Unless you're pumping crude into your car Canada produces very little. Price of oil has only a little to do with the price of gas.

[CID]

Don't mistake gasoline for crude. Unless you're pumping crude into your car Canada produces very little. Price of oil has only a little to do with the price of gas.

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2152.aspx

Crude is the largest component in gasoline prices. Saying that it isn't is like saying the price of chicken has very little bearing on the cost of fried chicken.

[tbaylx]

Don't mistake gasoline for crude. Unless you're pumping crude into your car Canada produces very little. Price of oil has only a little to do with the price of gas.

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2152.aspx

Crude is the largest component in gasoline prices. Saying that it isn't is like saying the price of chicken has very little bearing on the cost of fried chicken.

Not quite. Crude is the main component but doesn't take anything else into account such as refinery maintenance, supply disruptions, gasoline demand, and not to mention refiners are often not the same companies that pump crude and they don't pass on the full savings to consumers. There is a reason refiners stock prices are at all time highs. You can't just assume because crude prices are halved that gasoline prices should automatically be halved as well.

A better analogy would be the price of clothing isn't low when cotton prices are cheap.

[co-joe]

You can't really beat WestJet's cost structure. It's really a drop in the bucket as far as costs go.

Maybe, but what I think you mean is that you (suncore) can't beat Encore's pay/cost structure. It's REALLY a drop in the bucket as far as costs/pay go.

WJ's cost structure is good too, but it's the WS wage carrot dangle that allows Encore's cost structure to be ridiculously competitive.

[privateer]

I think that was an oversimplification of my previous comment.

The bean counters will see the writing on the wall eventually and sub out their work. But if you see a new Suncor plane on the apron all bets are off.

[FICU]

WJ's cost structure is good too, but it's the WS wage carrot dangle that allows Encore's cost structure to be ridiculously competitive.

Exactly... pilots accepting shit wages to fly airplanes are potentially putting long tenured and well paid pilots out of work.

Shell and now Suncor/Air North. Who's next?

[pianokeys]

Don't mistake gasoline for crude. Unless you're pumping crude into your car Canada produces very little. Price of oil has only a little to do with the price of gas.

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2152.aspx

Crude is the largest component in gasoline prices. Saying that it isn't is like saying the price of chicken has very little bearing on the cost of fried chicken.

Not quite. Crude is the main component but doesn't take anything else into account such as refinery maintenance, supply disruptions, gasoline demand, and not to mention refiners are often not the same companies that pump crude and they don't pass on the full savings to consumers. There is a reason refiners stock prices are at all time highs. You can't just assume because crude prices are halved that gasoline prices should automatically be halved as well.

A better analogy would be the price of clothing isn't low when cotton prices are cheap.

Exactly. Right now the price of gas, and other refined products made from crude, are going to be higher as this is shutdown season for refiners. Maintenance turn arounds.

Actually, theres more companies that find and refine than stand alone, downstream only, refining companies. Companies like Imperial Oil, Shell, BP, Suncor etc... are integrated oil companies, meaning they have both upstream and downstream businesses so they both find it, and then refine it. Find the crude that is. These companies, or any company that has a refinery right now, has a license to print money due to the low cost of crude. Its a weird industry because when crude prices are high, upstream is making money and downstream makes nothing, and when crudes low, downstream makes all and upstream gets the shaft.

[CID]

Not quite. Crude is the main component but doesn't take anything else into account such as refinery maintenance, supply disruptions, gasoline demand, and not to mention refiners are often not the same companies that pump crude and they don't pass on the full savings to consumers. There is a reason refiners stock prices are at all time highs. You can't just assume because crude prices are halved that gasoline prices should automatically be halved as well.

A better analogy would be the price of clothing isn't low when cotton prices are cheap.

The experts disagree.

http://www.gaspricesexplained.com/#/?se ... oil-prices

[loopa]

Apparently in the Suncor town hall meeting it was said that WJ is now just another approved charter operator to take over the extra flying for Suncor. As for what this means in the sense of shutting down Suncor flt department, I don't know.

[Donald]

Good luck to the crews of Suncor, word is that the flight department will be shut down on Jan 9.

[Confliction]

Well a friend there says that's complete BS.

[oldtimer]

I wonder if liability has anything to do with this. In the eyes of tort lawers, maybe Suncor is an oil company with deep pockets as opposed to an airline.
Just a thought.

[Prodriver]

Good, an Oil company has no business running an airline. They sub out everything else including there own employees, why would they want to mess with aviation? Not in there area of expertise, go drill a well...

[Confliction]

Haha sound bitter you didn't get hired once upon a time.

[Ex99guy]

Good, an Oil company has no business running an airline. They sub out everything else including there own employees, why would they want to mess with aviation? Not in there area of expertise, go drill a well...

Go kick rocks prodriver.

If this turns out to be true, good luck to all the Suncor crew. Sad to see another great aviation gig being lost to the bean counters.

[Prodriver]

Ops, that came out a little harsh, I hope it is not true, and I know it is hard on the staff, Sorry. But in reality they don't own there own drilling rigs so why would they want to own AC. The movement of people will not change, they will just be hauled by a contractor, opportunity for the large charter companies, airlines etc. I would bet it is an exposure issue and they will have the ability to bid the shit out of those flights/seats. They are a very well run company.

[loopa]

In reality do you think Suncor would announce that it's shutting down and risk losing its employees in the process? Or just say everything is fine until one day when the barricades block entry to your work place? That's how Shell shut down. "Everything is fine" until the day when everyone lost their jobs.

Would WJ consider interviewing/employing these Suncor crews that may be losing their jobs?

I keep hearing both stories; one where the employees are being told the department is NOT shutting down, and another one where it's being shut down Jan 9th.

[palebird]

With 5T being a private company you sure know a lot about their financial health. 5T has 3 Oil companies under contract and other upcoming charter obligations. BTW the codeshare agreement is working as intended so far.

Any more insight?


Well now aren't we defensive.. Charter "obligations" indeed, does not mean anything else. Private company, well let's see, the other companies in your little group are all highly dependant on the mighty tar sands also. Me thinks the mothership is hurting and, sorry to say, it won't get any better in the near future. It is no secret 5T likes to spend money like they are rockstars. But you aren't. Have fun.

[tincanflyer]

Writing was on the wall when Shell shut down.

[ajet32]

Suncor got into the CRJ operation in 2006 because the local charter providers couldn't and wouldn't commit aircraft to the various projects. Suncor as other oil companies run a fly in fly out schedule. It has to be run to accommodate the operation not an airlines schedule. This was the main reason that the company went from small Corporate jets running back and forth to CYMM to CRJ's running to CFG6.
A number of the current and former pilots had and have airline experience. The CRJ operation is run along airline standards and then you get exactly what you want and when you want it, not when some dispatcher,charter coordinator or marketing person says you can have the airplane. That is the reason for the the department exists.

[Confliction]

Good luck to the crews of Suncor, word is that the flight department will be shut down on Jan 9.

Bird is the word.