Aviation vs more $$$$$$ elsewhere

MaximumSausage · Post by **MaximumSausage** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:11 pm

I'd be interested to know if there are any stories out there similar to mine.
I was lured into aviation in 1997. I earned my commercial multi I.F.R. and instructor rating and worked as an instructor for 3 years. Then on to Hicks and Lawrence for multi time and a year on a King Air with a medivac company in Northern Ontario. At that point I had 2600 hours, 1000 multi with 500 turbine and an ATPL. I was laid off a year ago and stumbled upon a job as a train conductor. All the years I flew for a living,I starved. After a short time with the railway (4 months) I now make $60,000 a year and the job is stress free. In a few years, as an Engineer I will make closer to $100,000 yr. Life is good except for one thing. I love to fly and the Air Canada hiring has me doubting my decision to leave aviatin. Any similar stiories or comments are welcome.

twin turbines · Post by **twin turbines** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:27 pm

Well here is one thought. Even if you were successful in getting hired by AC it would take you 5 more years just to break even with what you are now making. Although you might be working less, but then again you might have to live somewhere you don't want to untill you can bid elsewhere.

That is a super toughie. I myself am in a similar state, several thousand hours of good time but now wondering if the grass isn't greener. I think you just gotta do what makes you happy now. Don't worry to much about 5 10 years down the road cause you might never get there right?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:56 am

Well I come from an aviation family and my younger brother followed in all the footsteps before him too. He instructed for about three years and then quit to become a cop -- it was the low point of the dark ages and he could no longer handle living in a crappy basement apartment with no money for food, and sitting at the airport all day to maybe get an hour or two more on a 150.

In any case... he really enjoys being a cop, but I also know for a fact that he misses flying and always will. I think it's harder when family/friends are still in it so it's sort of always in your face. I think that you just have to decide if you can live with watching airplanes pass overhead every once in a while, or bumping into a guy at a party who works for AC, without getting two wound up...

As twins said, very tough call.

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:19 am

I too am a train conductor. Left aviation through a lay off and CP Rail was the 1st decent opportunity that called. I put in an application with AC if I get a call great Ill weigh the odds. If I dont Ill drive my train through the countryside for a living. We make good money with probably as much job security as u can hope for. If the urge to fly is there - rent or buy. Less BS and u still have a good steady cheque every 2 weeks.

The grass always looks greener on the other side.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:04 am

How does on go about becoming a train conductor and what qualifications do they look for in the pre-screening process?

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:32 am

as you probably know the 2 big railways are Canadian Pacific and CN - they post ads on their websites for job listings

http://www.cpr.ca

http://www.cn.ca

if you are interested in a more community style railway aka a shortline

http://www.railamerica.com

they own a lot of the shortlines around north america

The process for me at CP was

1. go to an info session - 1/2 the people were cut at lunch, Afternoon was aptitude tests

2. 30 min interview with 2 from HR, 1 local area manager.

3 Medical - went to CFB Downsview did the basic aviation medical. eyes ears, drop the pants cough etc

4. 6 months class - 1/2 on job training half in class

Overall like I have said in previous posts. Money is good to very good, every 2nd thursday i wake up and the account is bigger and when your on the road your your own boss. Worth a look.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:12 am

MaximumSausage, (I like your name

) I had a similar experience as yours. I had the 80K+ job waiting for me and left for the money and lifestyle. I went through phases of wanting to go back but the best advice I can give you is to stick to your decision: be it AC or Train driving.

The reason is that you have so much to gain from each route but nothing to gain by jumping back and forth. I let my "aviation" feelings pass by and now I'm starting to see some serious career growth potential. 100K is no joke and if you know how to properly save/invest and use that money, you can retire early, have a nice property and a bird waiting for you at the Airport. Just play around with a financial plan and see what I mean!

Is your industry subject to ups and downs such as Aviation?

Good Luck!

MaximumSausage · Post by **MaximumSausage** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:31 am

Thanks for the excellent replies guys. I welcome more. ABC 123...I am also with CP and on the main line in Central Ontario. Because we deal with less "stuff" up in the bush, my course only lasted 4 months......and I didn't cough for anyone.

I'd be interested to know how long you have been out of aviation and if you've kept up your medical. I too have applied to A/C....in fact just last night at 4 a.m. I, like you, will weigh my options if the call comes. I've also thought of using the money I'm making to obtain my JAR. Things would a lot clearer if I were still in my 20's and had all the time in the world.

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:10 am

Maximum Sausage

My last commercial flight was April 21 2003 in a mighty Metroliner. I have my medical and keep up with aviation. My dad flies for AC so the itch is still there. Just bought a house so only so much $ to go around right now for renting. I miss it but at the end of the day the railway pays the bills and its fun 2. Beats working for a living. Where are u Cartier, Schreiber, T Bay?

MaximumSausage · Post by **MaximumSausage** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:48 am

ABC XYZ
I work the Mactier-Cartier leg but live elsewhere. My last flight was in a King Air A100 about 9 months ago and haven't flown since. What piece of track do you ride?

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:48 pm

Been working the IMS transfer job recently taking cars from Obico to Vaughan for northwest traffic. Right now im senior on the helpers spareboard so I get a good variety. As you probably know we have a lot of yard and roadswitcher jobs here on top of the mainline in Toronto.

Done a few trips north to Mactier so far this summer 105, 435, 274, work train. Surprised how many guys live up Sudbury, North Bay way and drive to Mactier. Nice ride up to Mactier.

Zatopec · Post by **Zatopec** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:52 pm

Interesting comments, guys.

I as well have left the flying side of things aside and recently checked-out as an FSS at Nav Canada. It's great work and I'm home everyday. Needless to say the pay is far better than what I ever made as a pilot so no more financial concerns. For the first time in my life I can look forward to buying a new car, or a house, or go on a trip once a year, things I could never afford before.

The very best thing is that I still make a living out of aviation. Nav Can offers lots of career opportunities so who knows where I'll end up. I still have my licences and plan on keeping my instructor rating current so I can do some instruction on the side... at my own conditions.

It itches, sometimes. Enough so that I applied at Jazz. Nothing to loose, right? If they call, I'll decide which way I'll go but if they don't it's no big deal, I'm very happy here!

Things weren't looking good when I decided to make the move and I just was sick of all the bullshit. I was looking for a better living and didn't think flying could lead me there. That's why I left.

Do what's best for you, what you believe will make you happy!

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:12 pm

Zatopec congrats on your new job.

When I was laid off all I thought about was getting back into the cockpit of any plane at any price. Its funny how once I got a job away from flying that I realized just how bad this industry is.

How can you honestly earn a decent living in an industry where:

1. Pilots and companies are willing to undercut each other for work
2. Government over regulates and over taxes the industry
3. 3rd party groups like insurance and fuel are out of control
4. very low wages after spending tens of thousands on training

35 K to fly a jet sounds ok in flight college but 35 k at 40 with 3 kids and a mortgage just doesnt work. At the end of the day its a job.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:45 pm

So true, so true. One of the memories that stayed with me the longest was an AA pilot on one of those Discovery shows that said that he has had ups and downs; his up, flying a 777, his down, waiting in line to collect free food from a local mission...

I thought this would never happen to me. One day, while standing at the checkout counter, the cashier looked at me a said, you're going to have to try it again. I had to go to my car and scramble some change and bills to pay for my groceries! That day, I walked with my head down, I was ashamed, sad and pissed...I promised this would never happen to me ever again.

Air Canada or Cathay, if it's not for a VP position, they can kiss my @ss...

brokenwing · Post by **brokenwing** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:03 pm

MACTIER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOLY CRAP......... how do you like that? or the locals for that matter. I hope you havent had to spent the odd day waiting at Riva's.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:32 pm

MaximumSausage wrote: All the years I flew for a living,I starved. After a short time with the railway (4 months) I now make $60,000 a year and the job is stress free.

Ha !
The reason you starved is because all you ate was pizza and fruit roll-ups and played BF 1942 all night

: P

-=0=LIR=0=-

55+ · Post by **55+** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:26 pm

There are other areas in Aviation besides airlines that can be equally rewarding in my view. I retired from Nav Canada as a Service Design Pilot(I designed the instrument approach procedures for the CAP/RCAP) and amended the in-flight publications(CFS,CAP,LO/HI Enroute charts), prior to that was an Inspector with Transport Canada. Pay is not to bad but not up to airline standards as I finished with $85,000.00/yr. Emphasis is on post secondary education along with a pilot background – ATPL 3000+ hrs with the usual multi eng background is the entrance and recent hires had in excess of that. You do get to fly but unfortunately not that much but the job is 8-4 weekends and all holidays off plus starting 3-4 weeks summer vacation. As a former air ambulance pilot prior to joining TC and also with a young family, that time off and working hours was a godsend believe me. Also, I got a fully indexed pension after 27 yrs and when you are my age now, nothing else matters. I am not knocking stock options or purchase plans for stocks but I have close buddies during my time who went with the Air Novas, Air Atlantic, Inter Canadian and the like and I often wonder how they made out with all the mergers, closures, movement not to mention what pensions are available to them now, if any……..

hydro · Post by **hydro** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:03 pm

I also gave up on Flying as a career to go FSS, though I pulled the plug early so to speak, without too much invested. Secure career, decent pay, though not so stable (yet) as I am about to move to my 3rd station in 3 years.

Most of the time I'm happy with the decision, and hopefully some day with a good savings plan and succesful investing I can buy an airplane and fly around for fun. At least that's the new dream.

But working in a FIC, everytime I take a flightplan with a pilot who's licence is close to mine I take notice and wonder what'd it be like if I stuck with it and how far I might have made it if the situation was reversed. I always consider pulling the plug and going back to flying but so far haven't come too close to yet, just something always on the back of my mind.

hydro

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:19 pm

Pulled the plug on flying for a living loooong ago, went ATC instead.

Buddy who I hired on the line way back when is now LEFT seat ACA 67! Makes more than I do (now), but it took him 15+ years to do it! Lots of shit in between while I just went slow and steady. We figure lifetime earnings will be about the same.

I always said I could make enough to fly whenever, but I really don't have the urge lately. Getting old I guess and lifestyles change. Comfortably numb....

When I was a pup I would have and did beg/kill to fly...anything. Now I won't even get out of bed for what some of you guys make in a month

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:27 pm

FamilyGuy wrote:Pulled the plug on flying for a living loooong ago, went ATC instead.

When I was a pup I would have and did beg/kill to fly...anything. Now I won't even get out of bed for what some of you guys make in a month

Then it sounds like you made the right choice.....flying is the only thing that gets me out of bed.

-=0=LIR=0=-

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:37 pm

Well put familyguy, it's a long tough road to decent money in the pilot business. I have friends that went into trades and some that went into flying...the trade guys are far better off financially than those who chose flying. I dropped out of the flying game after spending a bundle on training then begging for jobs that pay about what the paperboy makes. Still get the urge now and then but after a little reality sets in and I realize I have to eat and the urge passes!

Had smoke blown up my ass too many times for my likings in aviation, now I fly when I want and where I want.....better to own and fly for fun!

pianodude · Post by **pianodude** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:58 pm

i have been out of the industry now for about 10 years. for most of them i wondered if i made the right move. i went back to school, got a degree, and have been happily self employed for a while. reading about layoffs, rotten pay, and poor working conditions brought back a lot of crappy memories about why i got out in the first place(3000 hrs and an atpl didnt count much back then, and i guess it still doesnt get a lot of respect). i was offered a bus driving gig starting at 50k a year and they paid for the training. talk about irony!. good luck and best wishes to those of you sticking it out.

Main Gear · Post by **Main Gear** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:13 pm

I understand the frustration of the crap pay in aviation, at least initially, but anybody pursuing flying for a career should have known this going in.

Unless you were convinced by one of these flying schools that talk about the upcoming shortage and the unlimited positions with AC making a 100g's.

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:33 pm

I think for me personally, its not just the money thats the issue. I ran out of money during my CPL training and have flown just twice in almost 2 years. I did 4 years of university and at the end wanted to get away and just enjoy myself so I moved west to work at a ski resort. After 3 winters I managed to get a job as a ski patroller (another dream job) but with the same problem, low pay and benefits. This summer I got on with a builder starting at $14/hr and just 3 months in I'm up to $17. I've got a serious girl on the go now who wants a house and the vacations etc but she still makes more money than me serving.

If I was still single I would put more consideration into finishing my CPL. As it is I still dream of doing it and what makes me want to do it is not the airline cushy 10 days of work a month with girls in every city but the opportunity to go to new places and see northern Canada or where ever I end up. Its the adventure that I feel I'm missing. I know that is a naive rose coloured view but still....

I dont agree with working for free or buying PPC's etc and I'm not looking for the $250000 a year, I just want to be able to do what I love and be able to have what everyone wants - a house, a good reliable car, some toys like a good mountain bike, new skis and be able to take a holiday or go to the dentist without saving for a year.

Sorry my comment turned into a book - take it easy guys and if you're out of the flying gig...I hope you dont lose the passion for it.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:44 pm

I guess the biggest variable here is...is it worth it to stay single until you get established...if ever. The majority of the guys that leave aviation is over a domestic issue... I've already made my choice, hardest one I ever made.

-=0=LIR=0=-

Aviation vs more $$$$$$ elsewhere

Aviation vs more $$$$$$ elsewhere

Re: Aviation vs more $$$$$$ elsewhere