The F-35 is not dead

[lownslow]

I think I may have stumbled across a solution. Meet the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-Quo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDC_F-CK-1_Ching-kuo

Is it ideal? I dunno, depends on your definition I guess. It has two engines so there's that, plus it's made in Taiwan so... cheap maybe? Looking like what happens when a F-16 and F-18 spend some sexy time together, I can only hope it somehow melds the best attributes of the two. Furthermore, according to Wikipedia the engine manufacturer seemed to think that with a little tweaking this baby could supercruise which with our general vastness of the north seems like a good feature, no? Plus, it can carry stuff:


So how about this: we get Bombardier to build them (yay, our stocks!), get P&WC on the job of developing those supercruise-worthy engines, and, I don't know, whatever Canadian company can do avionics working their mojo on that end of things then we can all give ourselves a big hug that we're making it all here. All that's missing is the standard battleship grey paint and the decoy canopy painted on the belly. That, and export them. Lots of them. How expensive can this little guy really be?

As for the name, I think Ching-Quo is going to have to go. How about the Canuck II? Not the Arrow II. Never the Arrow II. I'm saving that one for a whole other proposal. Keep the F-CK bit though, mostly because it makes me laugh.

I like the idea that if there's a conflict somewhere in the world, Canada decides the number of flying F-CKs we give.

[trampbike]

I like the idea that if there's a conflict somewhere in the world, Canada decides the number of flying F-CKs we give.

Solid point

[rigpiggy]

Once again people, you've lost the plot.....
We've 2 main fighter bases Maggotville, and Cool Lake. Any fighter we buy must have the capability of flying YOD-YQQ, YOD-YSY, YBG-YFB or YBG-YQY intercept, 5 Minute combat/15Minute escort, and return to a suitable base. farthest is 1200 NM, closest around 600. The F-35(whale) is draggy due to the lift fan required for the USMC. They say the F35 can "supercruise" for 150 miles. Only way around this is to use FOL's I know the one in YEV was sold to the town for 1$, the town accountant didn't want to pay for the compressors, and shut off the cooling plant. The inside of the alert hangars subsided and the concrete is buggered hence they are unusable. How about the others in the north...

We need something like the Typhoon or Raphale as the US won't sell any F22's. Dassault has already talked of assembly lines here.

[Old fella]

The Trudeau Government indicated the F-35 is off the table, said so during their campaign up to October 19 when they got a convincing majority. I believe yesterday same thing was said in a media scrum with the new Minister who is responsible for Procurement. Sure, boys and girls, keep bleating on this topic pro/con commentary but the F-35 is dead, like this thread should be.

[AuxBatOn]

It would be illegal, bu Canadian law, to prevent Lockheed to bid into the procurement process. So they will likely bid.

[Rockie]

It would be illegal, bu Canadian law, to prevent Lockheed to bid into the procurement process. So they will likely bid.

I agree. I think when they say "cancel" they mean end the headlong, singleminded, tunnel vision rush to buy the Conservatives favourite toy and hold a proper competition. Or at least a different one. There's little doubt in my mind the SOR will be changed to open the table to other types instead of like the last one that was so narrow only the F-35 fit.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

There's little doubt in my mind the SOR will be changed to open the table to other types instead of like the last one that was so narrow only the F-35 fit.

Which is also what they did for the C-17, the C-130J, the CH-47F, the FWSAR......

[Rockie]

There's little doubt in my mind the SOR will be changed to open the table to other types instead of like the last one that was so narrow only the F-35 fit.

Which is also what they did for the C-17, the C-130J, the CH-47F, the FWSAR......

Very true, but in the case of the C-17, C-130 and Chinook the capabilities required were pretty simple, and if there were viable alternatives that fit the CF as well I don't know what they are. In the F-35's case the required capabilities are suspect to say the least.

[Old fella]

"Cancel" or "bid" or "SOR", whatever you want. The next four years, there will be no agreement signed to purchase the F-35. After that if Trudeau gets the boot from office and some form of the CPC is re-elected, guess the F-35 could be back in the headlines.

[trampbike]

I agree. I think when they say "cancel" they mean end the headlong, singleminded, tunnel vision rush to buy the Conservatives favourite toy and hold a proper competition.

Rush? They had 4 years of majority, if they truly had been in a rush, contracts would have been signed already don't you think?

It would be illegal, bu Canadian law, to prevent Lockheed to bid into the procurement process. So they will likely bid.

But how? Do you think Canada will get out of the JSF MoU?
If Canada doesn't, I don't understand why Lockheed-Martin would bid. It would basically have to compete against itself (the JSF MoU), through FMS, and offer price and industrial offsets guarantees.

[Rockie]

Rush? They had 4 years of majority, if they truly had been in a rush, contracts would have been signed already don't you think?

Contracts would have been signed if the PBO hadn't done their job and exposed that entire program for the incompetent, fraudulent fiasco that it was. When they did the Conservatives were literally forced to bring everything to a grinding halt and nothing has happened since because there was no plan B. No alternative. No other fighter considered.

[Spokes]

It would be illegal, bu Canadian law, to prevent Lockheed to bid into the procurement process. So they will likely bid.

I agree. I think when they say "cancel" they mean end the headlong, singleminded, tunnel vision rush to buy the Conservatives favourite toy and hold a proper competition. Or at least a different one. There's little doubt in my mind the SOR will be changed to open the table to other types instead of like the last one that was so narrow only the F-35 fit.

Actually, i believe Trudeau during the campaign specifically said the F-35 would be excluded. That seemed kinda odd to me though. Maybe just campaign talk,

[AuxBatOn]

He did, but it doesn't make it legal!

[Spokes]

He did, but it doesn't make it legal!

Yes, that kinda was what I was thinking.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Which is also what they did for the C-17, the C-130J,

Those would be the Only major capital projects for the Canadian Armed Forces that was delivered under budget and ahead of schedule. How was that done ? Easy they decided to buy a proven design with full visibility on costs, didn't "Canadian-ize" it, , and negotiated a fair price. Golly we sure don't want to make that mistake again.

It is going to be so much better getting the plane that is still not even close to full mission capable, costs 40 % more than it is supposed to, and is 6 years behind schedule.........

Too bad there isn't a 2 engine, full capable, multi roll, mature in production fighter with totally predicable costs, used daily by the US Navy and Marine Corps and supported to 2040; we could buy right now.......

[Gannet167]

I think it's ironic that the F-35 program was a path started down by a Liberal government back in the 90's. The intention to buy was formally announced in 2010, but way, way back, the Liberals began involvement in the project with a view to bring massive contacts to Canadian aerospace industries and buy the aircraft.

Canada has been a participant in the JSF program since 1997, when the Department of National Defence signed on to the Concept Demonstration phase with an investment of US$10 million. As part of this phase, Canada participated in the extensive and rigorous U.S.-led competitive process where two bidders, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, developed and competed prototype aircraft. This process led to the selection of Lockheed Martin as the JSF manufacturer in 2001.

In 2002, Canada joined the System Development and Demonstration phase with a monetary investment of U.S.$100 million, with an additional U.S.$50 million contributed through federal Canadian technology investment programs. The System Development and Demonstration phase runs through 2015.

In 2003, the United States invited the current partners to participate in the Production, Sustainment and Follow-on Development phase of the program.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?m=/index&nid=548059

[frosti]

Too bad there isn't a 2 engine, full capable, multi roll, mature in production fighter with totally predicable costs, used daily by the US Navy and Marine Corps and supported to 2040; we could buy right now.......

I'm glad there are people out there advocating for keeping the RCAF tradition of 'Flying yesterdays technology, tomorrow!" It's exactly what they need, a less capable, more expensive long-term fighter. You should run for politics.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Too bad there isn't a 2 engine, full capable, multi roll, mature in production fighter with totally predicable costs, used daily by the US Navy and Marine Corps and supported to 2040; we could buy right now.......

I'm glad there are people out there advocating for keeping the RCAF tradition of 'Flying yesterdays technology, tomorrow!" It's exactly what they need, a less capable, more expensive long-term fighter. You should run for politics.

Anyone who seriously thinks the F 35 is going to be cheaper to own and operate than the Super Hornet, is being willfully delusional.

[trampbike]

Anyone who seriously thinks the F 35 is going to be cheaper to own and operate than the Super Hornet, is being willfully delusional.

Anyone who thinks the Super Hornet will do the job for the next 40 years isn't flying fighters...

[oldncold]

It's remembrance day,reflecting on how many times canadian troops. Have gone into front line battles with 2 conflicts ago kit. Have we as a nation failed to learn anything. The first coffins in Canadian conflicts are always a result of playing catch up in kit, due to small dicked politics lack of brains and will. I say it again. F22 kill the 87to1 against the super hornet. F35. 45to 1. If you are the father or mom of a 25yr. oldfighter jock. Which one do you want your son or daughter to go into battle with? The time is now to stop procrastination. War is not a game it and all the posturing to prevent it is still based on who has the best tools to prevent itfrom Starting or very quickly end it . Get you new mp off their duff help educate them about fighter jets. And what What happen when 3gen fight goes up against fifth gen.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Anyone who thinks the Super Hornet will do the job for the next 40 years isn't flying fighters...

I am sure todays fighter pilots don't want to see their profession become obsolete, but anyone who thinks there will be manned fighters in 40 years is in denial about where technology is going......

[Big Pistons Forever]

It's remembrance day,reflecting on how many times canadian troops. Have gone into front line battles with 2 conflicts ago kit. Have we as a nation failed to learn anything. The first coffins in Canadian conflicts are always a result of playing catch up in kit, due to small dicked politics lack of brains and will. I say it again. F22 kill the 87to1 against the super hornet. F35. 45to 1. If you are the father or mom of a 25yr. oldfighter jock. Which one do you want your son or daughter to go into battle with? The time is now to stop procrastination. War is not a game it and all the posturing to prevent it is still based on who has the best tools to prevent itfrom Starting or very quickly end it . Get you new mp off their duff help educate them about fighter jets. And what What happen when 3gen fight goes up against fifth gen.

In a perfect world every soldier,sailor, and airman/airwoman would get the very best and latest technology. Unfortunately the amount of money the Canadian government and thus by extension the Canadian public wants to spend is finite. Experience has shown about $ 20 Billion a year is it. So within that budget hard choices have to be made because spending more on one capital project means spending less on others.

It is a fact is that Canadian fighter pilots are not being killed or crippled in combat due to inadequate equipment with todays technology. Buying a less expensive option is unlikely to change that, however buying the F 35 will inevitably squeeze other budgets, including those where CF members have actually done a lot of dying, like Army soldiers. I have a problem with that.

The F 35 would have been a disaster for Canada because we simply could not afford it.

The harsh reality is that Canada will never be able to afford to spend the kind of money required to buy the 110 % solution. We will get just enough of equipment that is just good enough and depend on the quality of our serving members to do more with less while getting results that are better than just about any other Military in the world.

It sucks, it is not right, but it is the reality of Canada's Military.

[trampbike]

I am sure todays fighter pilots don't want to see their profession become obsolete, but anyone who thinks there will be manned fighters in 40 years is in denial about where technology is going......

We'll see in 40 years if your prediction falls within the realm of these predictions:

"I don't really think airplanes are going to revolutionize warfare. They are nice and all, but I don't think they'd be very useful for military purposes"
- Some people before WW1

"Now that we can shoot missiles from the ground and reach targets far away, fighter and bomber airplanes will become obsolete very soon"
- Some people after WW2

"Wow now that fighter airplanes can shoot missiles, they don't need guns anymore!"
- Some people before the Vietnam war


As Niels Bohr said: "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future"

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am sure todays fighter pilots don't want to see their profession become obsolete, but anyone who thinks there will be manned fighters in 40 years is in denial about where technology is going......

We'll see in 40 years if your prediction falls within the realm of these predictions:

"I don't really think airplanes are going to revolutionize warfare. They are nice and all, but I don't think they'd be very useful for military purposes"
- Some people before WW1

"Now that we can shoot missiles from the ground and reach targets far away, fighter and bomber airplanes will become obsolete very soon"
- Some people after WW2

"Wow now that fighter airplanes can shoot missiles, they don't need guns anymore!"
- Some people before the Vietnam war


As Niels Bohr said: "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future"

With the greatest respect I think you missed my point. I never said airplanes would become obsolete, I just said airplanes with pilots in them will become obsolete.

How much kinetic effect was delivered by remotely piloted aircraft in for example, Afghanistan in 2004: none. How much was being delivered in Afghanistan in 2014: Lots. Do you really think this trend is not going to accelerate ?
Do you really think that the technological solution developed in 1903 in order to solve the problem of how to control an aircraft, have a pilot onboard, is immutable ?

[AuxBatOn]

So, you are arguing we shouldn't buy the JSF because of unproven tech (by the way most is at this point, it's a matter of integration), by arguing we should buy a less capable aircraft that will be obsolete in 15 years tops based on unsolicites, undesigned technology? See the irony here?