Need point of view for choosing career path

[Saubia]

Good morning everyone,

Just to present myself I'm 30, living at Ottawa, graduated with a bachelor in electrical engineering and I just got all my basics licences ( IFR MULTI CPL +IATRA/250hTT). My plan is to get one day in a airline. I know the way to reach this goal will be hard and it won't happen in 1 month. But there is differents way to access an airline and I wanted to know the advantages and drawback of each. Your point of view and related experience may be very helpfull!

1) First of all isn't it too late to think about getting an airline as Westjet/AC..?

2) Do you think it's better to get a place like Wright north airways(ramp for 6/12 months or more and fly after that) or beeing instructor to pretent on day to apply in an airline?(I like both, it 's not only a matter of increase the number of hours) I know with both we can handle it but which one would be "the most effective" ?

3)Do you think my diploma can help or RH just don't care and check only the numbers of hours?
I know some of these asks are already on this forum but I wanted to have an up to date

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers!

[cgzro]

My advice, work as an EE , by a plane, fly for fun and fly for the rest of your life. Upgrade the plane periodically.

[Saubia]

I already though about that, but I don't wan't to stay in an office all my life dreaming about flying. I know the pay is really lower etc but when you are passionate it is hard to say : I fly just for fun and not for a career.

[Ypilot]

Quite a few people started their careers at 30+ and made it into the major. Unfortunately don't expect much encouragement on this forum.

The toughest is the first years / do you have kids / wife / moving around?

Obviously it has a lot to do with good attitude, are you willing to relocate anywhere in Canada and be flexible at your first job? This is what can help and make the difference.

Instruction is a great experience but it will not help obtain your right seat in a jet. It is better if you can get into twin commercial ops right away.

Good luck!

[arctic_slim]

I don't think 30 is too late to get into it. I graduated flight school with guys in their mid 30s, and I know one guy in his 40s who started in aviation, he was a doctor before...what a change eh? If flying is truly what you want to do then do what makes you happy in life.

I'm sure you already know about how hard it is to get into it. Crappy pay and work environments etc but if you're dedicated then it will be worth it.

I chose to go up north and do my time on the ramp. Spent 1.5 years working hard and then got flying. It was a great experience and I would not change it for anything. If you think you can handle it, go up north and start there. Places like North Wright, Summit Air, Air Tindi, Perimeter, TWA all do ramp pilot in waiting type of stuff. Just be prepared for harsh conditions and low pay.

On the other hand there are guys and gals who did the instructor thing and never let their home town and also made it to the airlines so it's all a matter of which path you want to take and which one fits in with your lifestyle.

You might be close to 40 before you get into Westjet/AC but 's something you need to think about when you get there don't know what will happen to the airlines in 10 years, you may not want to go to one at that point. There are other options out there too like smaller airlines or corporate etc. You could still go to WJ/AC but you might not see much high pay top of the chain time there since you'll be close to retirement by that point. I think that's something you should evaluate when you get to that point.

That's my opinions. Good luck with your career. I got my first job at 28, i think it was the right decision.

[Saubia]

Thanks a lot for your answers and encouragements, it is very appreciated!

Yes I have a wife, that is why getting close to a town would be nice( In this case I may choose instructeur) but if it works better going to the north we have plan to be separated (we have already experienced that, we will do it again if it worth it). Increasing hours on the north is better recognized than hours as instructor? because if I count (in optimistic and approximate scheme for both scenario...just use for comparaison)

Instructor:
1st year: 500h on cesna 2nd year: 500h on cesna 3rd year 200-500 hours on multi (ex: as pic on piper as instructor) idem for the 4th year and then you can be abble to apply in a regional compagnie for a right seat (i know it is optimistic)
So at the end I have 1000hrs as Pic on cesna and 1000h as Pic on multi in 4 years

North:
1year on the ramp 2nd year 500h multi on the right seat 3 rd 500h again on the right maybe after that PIC on the same plane for the 4th year
At the end 1000h multi on the right and maybe 500h on the left in 4 years

For me both seems valuable but maybe one scheme is prefered by regional compagnies ? (step to get before airline)

[bearitus]

Sounds a lot like me. I am a CPL/MIFR software engineer from Ottawa also looking to start a career in aviation. If you have family ties in the city instructing may not be a bad option because you can do consulting on the side when instructing slows down for winter.

[esp803]

I've found you can't plan your career in this field, there are too many variables.

Find something that gives you the life you want now (instructing and being with your wife is probably a good choice) and don't make a plan for where you are going to be in 4 years, chances are it's not what's going to happen (I don't mean that you can't accomplish the goal, but your goals may change, the industry might tank, you might decide that the airlines aren't for you, you might decide that float flying seasonally is your thing, maybe international air work... there are options)

E

[parallel60]

Saubia,

Great first post. I won't waste your time.....what I write may seem naive but I just believe it.


Don't listen to anyone that shits on you and ur ideas. my old roommate started at AC at 37-39(he never tells me his actual age haha) and he's a beauty. Has 5-6 yrs in now and loving life. If you want to do it do it. Sounds cliche or whatever bullshit they call it now but its true.

I'd like to assist in you getting there. Your bachelor in Electrical Engineering will without question help and shows you have drive. Thats an amazing accomplishment and be proud of it. I selfishly want your knowledge of Electrical Engineering.

So that u know where this is coming from....Im currently left seat at a canadian airline. just turned 34, best yr of my life so far.
PM me and i can give u a shout sometime.

PS. Someone offered this type of help to me once and I never forgot it. Canada/World needs more good Pilots. Get on it.

[Shiny Side Up]

I've found you can't plan your career in this field, there are too many variables.

+1

I don't think I'd have been able to predict where my career trajectory has went. My only advice would be to be flexible in one's plan for the future, you never know where it may take you. Don't turn down a good opportunity even if it may not line up with your original vision. A flying career has a lot more possibilities than you probably think and the older you get your priorities will change.

[GravelOpsRock]

Stick with your EE degree and buy a Super Cub with big tundra tires and enjoy flying for flying..

Unless of course you want to live in hotel rooms, eat shit food, become the typical fat useless North American adult, ruin your family, get divorced, owe her money for the rest of your life...

Seen that from more than one friend who just HAD to be a big jet airline pilot....

Your choice though, good luck with whatever path you choose!

[Meatservo]

Gimme a break. I have a nice house, a beautiful wife who also has a good job, I fly several different types of plane, including some "big" ones, if you care about that sort of thing, I'm home most nights and the only reason I may be slightly overweight is because of all the beer, which I can afford on account of my decent job. Most of my friends are also pilots and they are great guys. I think people mostly go on AvCanada when they are in a bad mood; that's why it seems like everyone here is a dick. Also I probably have "Stockholme syndrome" because I've had the same job for a long time.

The engineering degree is great if you accidental get one of your eyes poked out and can't fly anymore: a degree helps you get into management even if you never engineered anything in your life. Or managed anything in your life for that matter.

I say go for it. You probably already know what it's like to be trapped in an office for the rest of your life. Get out! Being thirty is fine. I can't tell the difference between a thirty-year-old and a twenty-five-year-old just by looking at him. I doubt your age will come up.

[GravelOpsRock]

He said he wants to fly for an airline.. I'm just more or less repeating what friends at WJ , AC, Sunwing have all said and experienced..

They all hate the commuting as well... at least 10 guys I know who have gone from hand flying turboprops, to airlines hate it and say its boring as #### and wished they didn't do it..

Its definately not for everyone...

[5x5]

Of course it's not for everyone - no job or career is. Thanks Captain Obvious!

I know that sounds argumentative, but really, give it a rest. For every disgruntled, negative pilot you can find I can likely find 3 times the number of dissatisfied engineers or software developers or plumbers or lawyers and on and on. I realize this is an aviation forum, but I can't believe the number of people who feel that aviation somehow has the market cornered on difficult job conditions or career paths.

The world is a tough place no matter what you choose to do. Everyone talks about it being to hard to change careers if flying doesn't work out - well an engineer (or any other profession for that matter) can't just magically change careers either. You have to realize that happiness isn't the lack of worries or difficulties, but results from dealing with life's trials and managing to proceed in spite of them. And no matter where you wind up, remember you're there because you chose to be. You can't undo the past so don't waste time wishing you'd done it differently because you didn't.

All jobs have downsides and whatever you choose, deal with it and make it work.

[GravelOpsRock]

By the way.. that Captain F'n 5 bars with winglets to you....

Of course it's not for everyone - no job or career is. Thanks Captain Obvious!

I know that sounds argumentative, but really, give it a rest. For every disgruntled, negative pilot you can find I can likely find 3 times the number of dissatisfied engineers or software developers or plumbers or lawyers and on and on. I realize this is an aviation forum, but I can't believe the number of people who feel that aviation somehow has the market cornered on difficult job conditions or career paths.

The world is a tough place no matter what you choose to do. Everyone talks about it being to hard to change careers if flying doesn't work out - well an engineer (or any other profession for that matter) can't just magically change careers either. You have to realize that happiness isn't the lack of worries or difficulties, but results from dealing with life's trials and managing to proceed in spite of them. And no matter where you wind up, remember you're there because you chose to be. You can't undo the past so don't waste time wishing you'd done it differently because you didn't.

All jobs have downsides and whatever you choose, deal with it and make it work.

[xsbank]

Meat, did you just call me a Dick? I think I'm offended... Nah, not...

I'm retired. I would rather have been dipped in sh$t than have spent an hour at an airline, except now when I compare my buddy's pension with mine. Then I wish I had been in the airlines, but only for, oh 3 or 4 minutes then I am so glad that I didn't have to do that. One, who is rolling in dosh, was a copilot for about 20 years. Aaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhh! All the money in the world...

Now, electrical engineering, that's truly cool. I have a friend whose son completed school, got his degree then started working for an engineering firm, they sent him to Zurich (where he shared an apartment with 4 women) and he commuted to Oman where he was entirely in charge of a power plant megaproject. Two years out of school. Office? Not so much. They asked him if he had a colour preference for his Escalade for Muscat...? He's not yet 30 and last I heard he was on a sailboat somewhere between San Francisco and Tahiti. Life is what you make of it.

Meat, you're a Dick too!

[Saubia]

Thanks a lot for all your messages! It's good to have lot of point of views;)

[altiplano]

Guys with a hate on for airline jobs certainly don't speak for me.

Great equipment. Good training. No cutting corners. Interesting destinations. And above all GREAT lifestyle. It's what I got in the business for - Tons of time off... and it pays well after the first few years - and will keep paying when I retire.

It's a great job but I don't live for my work... and cruising for 8 or 10 hours isn't exciting but it's productive and when it is followed by an interesting layover in a nice hotel, with good food, cold beer and a flight home the next day to a week off it is certainly more than tolerable.

1) If it's what you want to do, go for it. Not too late. Lots of guys at AC started well into their 30s even 40s. A new hire at 35 will still have a 25-30 year career and retire as widebody captain if they so desire.

2) I'd suggest though not to p!ss around instructing or in a job only flying a few hundred hours a year. You want to pack on the multi hours and get the experience to get to a 705 job asap. Yeah for a lot of guys it's about 'the journey' or some other BS. But at your age I'd set a goal. ie AC by 35 and chart a course to get there. If you start flying 800-1000 hours a year this year it can be done. Hammer resumes to companies with multi turboprops and a track record of upgrading from within and sending guys to airlines. Upgrade within a couple years or leave to somewhere that will upgrade you asap. With your ATPL, take the first 705 airline gig you can get - dash8, saab, rj whatever or maybe a light jet job. It's important not to sit in a king air or metro forever, you want to show a desire and ability to progress. Right seat, left seat, bigger airplane, repeat. Besides, 705 is statistically a safer job and you want to survive this career path so get outta the sh!t right away.

3) your degree is huge. It will score big points at AC in getting you an interview. I'm sure most (all) other companies will look favourably upon it also. Extra points probably because it's not a general arts degree...

There are those that will likely disagree, but in my experience that's how you get to an airline.

[Meatservo]

Meat, did you just call me a Dick? I think I'm offended... Nah, not...

I'm retired. I would rather have been dipped in sh$t than have spent an hour at an airline, except now when I compare my buddy's pension with mine. Then I wish I had been in the airlines, but only for, oh 3 or 4 minutes then I am so glad that I didn't have to do that. One, who is rolling in dosh, was a copilot for about 20 years. Aaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhh! All the money in the world...

Now, electrical engineering, that's truly cool. I have a friend whose son completed school, got his degree then started working for an engineering firm, they sent him to Zurich (where he shared an apartment with 4 women) and he commuted to Oman where he was entirely in charge of a power plant megaproject. Two years out of school. Office? Not so much. They asked him if he had a colour preference for his Escalade for Muscat...? He's not yet 30 and last I heard he was on a sailboat somewhere between San Francisco and Tahiti. Life is what you make of it.

Meat, you're a Dick too!

Ha ha. If I called you a dick it was only in the most general of terms. You're probably a fine fellow. Hey there's some guys who love the airlines. I tried flying for a scheduled carrier once and it wasn't my bag at all. But it wasn't the flying so much as it was the feeling that it was a real McJob, working for people who scheduled a part of every day they were at work to dedicate towards finding new ways to let the pilots know they were not appreciated, and that they were entry-level employees with no real future other than management if they possessed the ability to kiss ass and pretend it tasted like ice cream. But the fact is that zooming around in the air is a pretty fun job. I'm relatively bright, I think, although possibly a little socially inept, which has held me back somewhat (see "ass kissing/ice cream" above) and I find aviation challenging and rewarding. I have met lots of people who were no good at it at all. I feel like if you have a talent for a particular thing, you usually love doing it, unless your interactions with other people ruin it for you. And I'm sure that's the same no matter what you do for a living. Aviation can be a worthy discipline, or it can be a McJob. Depends on who you work with for the most part.

I am not denigrating engineering at all. My Dad was an engineer. It's a worthy discipline too. Not everyone is gonna get a mega-project, but of course not everyone is gonna turn out to be very good at flying aeroplanes, or teaching, or catching criminals or landscaping, or whatever their "dream" is. I can imagine ways in which living with four women could be hell on earth, and I bet Oman isn't for everyone either. Zurich? Yeah Zurich is all right.

I like zooming around in aeroplanes. If I was in charge of a power-plant mega-project, I'd probably have the same problems as I do right now: People think I'm a dick, and I can't seem to figure out how to lick ass and pretend it's ice-cream.

Not Richard, but Dick

[Saubia]

Thanks for all your advices, it's little bit clearer in my mind!:)

[PropToFeather]

Just remember: as far as instructor jobs in Ottawa go, you've (realistically) got a choice of two FTUs, both of which love to hire from within. The other 3 airports around (if you don't count Cornwall) are generally not into hiring more than one or two instructors every blue moon. Also, Ottawa's winter weather is... not great for making money as a flight instructor, so keep that in mind as well while doing your planning. That said... Montreal, Peterborough, and Cornwall are all (relatively) close by, which potentially affords more of a job market!

[Saubia]

Thanks! Yes If I go to instructor job I may go to Montreal to practice my french and there are some schools with multi instruction. I may try there before looking around Ottawa.

[PropToFeather]

Oh, don't get me wrong, look around in Ottawa - there's no telling if you'll get lucky and come in the week that 3 people move on and they desperately need instructors. Just keep in mind that, when it comes to instructing (and especially for multi), Ottawa's probably not the best place to be, since, I think there's a total of 2 twin engine trainers (maybe 3) flying out of the area.

So, basically, keep your expectations pretty low for Ottawa, and then if it works out, hey, you're in a great spot near home!