Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

[2R]

I will wait until the AWACs and Satellite Intel is public becomes available before comment about where the actual deed was done.
My wag is that they will not show what the AWACS in that area at the time of the shoot down saw. Maybe some of the F-15 sent to support the Turks might have seen something if they were in the air .
The AWACs will have the facts.

Do they not teach Turkish pilots how to intercept and interdict ? Are they not taught to Identify aircraft and escort them ? Is the shoot first and whine second going to be the new normal ? Are the Turks too scared to get close to another aircraft . They would rather shoot it down rather than get close and use accepted intercept procedures ? I suppose this means they can expect the same courtesy from the Russians when they get back in the air ,or maybe Greece will shoot down the Turks the next time they fly over Greece . over twenty two hundred incursions in Greek airspace in the last year.


Deja Vu all over again. Just weeks after Putin said this will not be another Afghanistan .A Russian helicopter is destroyed by a weapon supplied in a black ops supporting " Rebels" . Very clever of them to use an anti -tank weapon to destroy a helicopter on a rescue mission.

The shooting of the pilots in parachutes begs the question : Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention ? AGAIN !

[Moose47]

G'day

"Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention?"

When did that ever stop the Russians or Chinese from doing the same thing?

Cheers...Chris

[crazyaviator]

Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention ? AGAIN !

A little naive are we? The west or the east will do ANYTHING it thinks it can get away with to hell with rules. Most of us pee-ons do not have a clue how the elite work and perhaps that is a good thing

How about googling the death count for clinton or bush or obama

[Ypilot]

G'day

"Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention?"

When did that ever stop the Russians or Chinese from doing the same thing?

Cheers...Chris

US, UK and other countries have been fueling the war against Assad for four years.

Russia has been an ally to Syrian government for a long time and did not intervene in the conflict until recently, they have been supplying weapons to the Syrian regime so that they could keep their naval facility in Tartus, a strategic port for the Russians.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22906965
http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-ad ... ls-2012-12
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... er-1266487
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... pment.html

[PS-90A]

On 3 October 2015 a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) (English name: Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. It has been reported that at least 30 people were killed and over 30 were injured

Interesting you brought that up. The USA has just admitted that it was a mistake, and a profuse apology is likely in the works. Compare that to the Russian-backed downing of the passenger jet.

http://www.wideasleepinamerica.com/2013 ... t-655.html

[PS-90A]

FWIW Russia says it was shot at 1 km from the border and crashed 4km inside syria. Ain't Physics a bitch

Yep, the missile was fired while it was over Turkish territory, but didn't hit it until it had left Turkish airspace:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

Russia has published an alternative track for the plane showing it was nowhere near Turkish airspace. However it seems a little unlikely that Turkey would do something that dumb with NATO permission. Russia doesn't exactly have a good record of accurate reporting.

Please share a link to a source containing Russia's "inaccurate reporting records". You seem very certain about the accuracy of Turkish reports, or is it just your personal believes?

[PS-90A]

The Russians crossed less than 2 mile of airspace. Yet Turkey claims 5 mins? Pretty sure it wasn't an airship the Russians were flying. Did Russia provoke, sure, perhaps not intentional given the look at the rest of the flight path. Was the Turkey shooting justified? Absolutely not! The rebels killing the pilots makes them everyday thugs, glad our country is supporting thugs and a trigger happy nation

No, they said 17 seconds. The 5 minutes you are referring to is how long they were given warnings *before* entering Turkish airspace.

Russia are the real thugs here, believing they can invade other countries, work with rebels who then shoot down airliners full of passengers, and lie about it all. It might be a small incursion, but Turkey has the right to defend their airspace, and their people. (Part of the reason for them shooting down the plane is that Russia was bombing Turkman civilians in Syria, rather than or as well as ISIS).

The Turkmen shooting the pilot is unfortunate and dumb, although if someone is bombing your people you'd probably do the same. The Turkmen are one of the few rebel groups (along with Kurds) who we should definitely be helping rather than bombing.

In 2012, the Syrians shot down a Turkish jet which had entered its airspace, and Erdoğan’s furious response at the time was that “a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... k-galeotti

[xchox]

In 2012, the Syrians shot down a Turkish jet which had entered its airspace, and Erdoğan’s furious response at the time was that “a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... k-galeotti

Great Article. Pretty much sums up how I look at it.

Off-Topic... PS-90A, Did you or do you fly Russian Iron?

[CpnCrunch]

Please share a link to a source containing Russia's "inaccurate reporting records". You seem very certain about the accuracy of Turkish reports, or is it just your personal believes?

This has been pretty widely reported. See for example:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-12/i ... ia/6692318

I don't have any particular beliefs about Turkey. They're dumb and totalitarian, but I think they're not quite dumb enough to shoot down a Russian jet based on fabricated evidence.

[mileagejunkie]

Lots of uneducated, russophobic comments here.A word of advice, read real information, other than Main Streem Medias spun,twisted and completely fabricated garbage, you migh astually learn a thing or two.
Here are a few facts for you.
Assads government is legitimately elected,with over 80%vote in favour.
Russia was asked by Syria to help with Isis, they're there legally as per international law......no one else.
Russia is actually been doing lots of damage to Isis, whilst Americans been dropping flyers, warning Isis fighter when they're going to bomb them,so they can escape....
The list goes on.

Do yourselves a favour and have a good look at RT.com Lots of stuff that will open some eyes.

[Rockie]

Lots of uneducated, russophobic comments here.A word of advice, read real information, other than Main Streem Medias spun,twisted and completely fabricated garbage, you migh astually learn a thing or two.
Here are a few facts for you.
Assads government is legitimately elected,with over 80%vote in favour.
Russia was asked by Syria to help with Isis, they're there legally as per international law......no one else.
Russia is actually been doing lots of damage to Isis, whilst Americans been dropping flyers, warning Isis fighter when they're going to bomb them,so they can escape....
The list goes on.

Do yourselves a favour and have a good look at RT.com Lots of stuff that will open some eyes.

Leaders legitimately elected by 80% of the population don't have to kill 220,000 (and rising) of their citizens and force millions more to flee the country to cling to power. And your source for "facts" is a branch of Russian Television funded and controlled by the Russian government.

Seriously pal, I've got some hot property on Mars I can let you - and only you - have for cheap....

[Strobes]

Leaders legitimately elected by 80% of the population don't have to kill 220,000 (and rising) of their citizens and force millions more to flee the country to cling to power. And your source for "facts" is a branch of Russian Television funded and controlled by the Russian government.

Seriously pal, I've got some hot property on Mars I can let you - and only you - have for cheap....

*220,000 TOTAL deaths on both sides, as reported by the UN in January 2015. Other estimates vary from 137k to 250k+

These "current" numbers are broken down as follows:
Pro-government forces: 90,852 deaths
Rebels: 83,234 deaths
Civilians: 75,911 deaths, for a grand total - from these numbers - of 249,997 total killed by the conflict to date.

As you can see, Rockie, Assad is hardly killing 220,000 of the population to cling to power. In war, it has been said that the civilian population usually ranges from 1/3 to 1/2 of the normal casualties. So this is actually a very "safe" war for civvies - if there is such a thing haha.

Also, when it comes to the media, one should ALWAYS get his/her sources from 3 different sides on any issues. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Hence, on Syria, any smart person who really wants the truth will get their news from 1 NATO news source, 1 Russian news source, and 1 3rd party neutral news source. Put the 3 perspectives together, and the truth will usually be somewhere in the middle close to the 3rd party's viewpoint. Anything else is getting hose-fed propaganda from whichever side you listen to.

Edit: I should mention that the source for my numbers are from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualtie ... _Civil_War

[Rockie]

These "current" numbers are broken down as follows:Pro-government forces: 90,852 deathsRebels: 83,234 deathsCivilians: 75,911 deaths, for a grand total - from these numbers - of 249,997 total killed by the conflict to date.As you can see, Rockie, Assad is hardly killing 220,000 of the population to cling to power.

I stand corrected, the number is now over 250,000 since more than 3 have certainly been killed since those stats were compiled. Of course Assad is killing them to cling to power - had he left when it was clear the population wanted him to nobody would have been killed. Instead, peaceful protests were met with military force and the barrel bombs continue.

Casualties from all sides whether combatants or civilians caught in the middle count as casualties in a war since they're all dead on account of that war, and this war was started by Assad - and continues because Assad will not give up power.

Note: These are just deaths, how many more wounded and maimed for life? What about the millions forced from their homes and fleeing the country with nothing but what they can carry? What is the exact human cost to keep Assad in power?

[Strobes]

I would shy away personally from holding Assad fully responsible for this. Yes, governmental forces provided the spark when the schoolchildren were arrested, and then they shot at the protesters, no doubt there. But when it comes to your last question... We know what Assad will do to stay in power. Do we want to learn what ISIS will do when they get in power?

Russia proposed a plan earlier this year that would restart talks between moderate rebels, Assad, and lead to a transitional government with Assad ultimately walking away. The West laughed. Who's laughing now?

I don't have any particular beliefs about Turkey. They're dumb and totalitarian, but I think they're not quite dumb enough to shoot down a Russian jet based on fabricated evidence.

You need to read up more on Recep Tayyip Erdogan, buddy. The only reason we (NATO) tolerate him is because we need his real estate to put up an antimissile shield battery to screw with the Popovs.

[Rockie]

We know what Assad will do to stay in power. Do we want to learn what ISIS will do when they get in power?

Isis became what it is today in the chaos and destruction of Syria. It's all on Assad's shoulders.

[mileagejunkie]

Rockie, you seem to know an awful lot about this whole situation, seems odd that you're hanging out on an aviation forum, perhaps you should be working for higher echelons solving the Middle East crisis......yet, you're here flapping your gums about something you have a very passionate,yet very uneducated opinion.Lots of accusations that MSM media been throwing at us have actually been proven beyond a doubt earlier,you just don't know about it, yet, still think that it's true.....go look it up.
There are plenty of other independent sources than RT where you can get factual information.....RT happens to have it in an organized manner, but it's still the same info.Its easy and fun to be a keyboard commando, buddy, but do yourself a favour, so you don't look stupid in public, do some reading and do some critical thinking, just a thought.

[dhc#]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ctory.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... roll-house

[CpnCrunch]

Some more info about Russia's propaganda machine:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... anda-media

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27713847

[Rockie]

There are plenty of other independent sources than RT where you can get factual information.....RT happens to have it in an organized manner, but it's still the same info.

In principle I steer clear of blatant propaganda outlets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

RT has been called a propaganda outlet for the Russian government and its foreign policy by news reporters, including former RT reporters. It has also been accused of spreading disinformation. The United Kingdom media regulator Ofcom has threatened RT with sanctions because of repeated violations of its rules on impartiality. The network states that it offers a Russian perspective on global events.

Here's your favourite source for facts take on Air Malaysia:

https://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-isr ... e-version/
https://www.rt.com/news/318653-buk-manu ... d-warhead/
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318663-mh17- ... eport-buk/
https://www.rt.com/news/310057-malaysia ... stigators/

[Moose47]

mileagejunkie

Хорошо сделанный товарищ. Москва будет очень счастлива Вами.

Всего хорошего. Приветствия

... Крис

[Gilles Hudicourt]

There are plenty of other independent sources than RT where you can get factual information.....RT happens to have it in an organized manner, but it's still the same info.

In principle I steer clear of blatant propaganda /

You think Western media is balanced when it deals with news items that show western countries in a bad light ?
When the US bombs a wedding, a funeral or a hospital and slaughters a bunch of civilians, it is always covered up, hushed, or "unconfirmed", or it is stated that the US "opened an investigation". Such investigations are never closed. I can show you dozens of such incidents, covered and documented in non western media but glossed over in BBC, CNN etc.

When a frightened Canadian soldier panicked and opened fire in Afghanistan at a car approaching his convoy, only to find he had slaughtered a complete innocent family, you think CBC covers this in a balanced and unbiased manner ?

Take other incidents like the 2005 SAS incident in Basra when the SAS killed Iraki police and civilians to free two SAS soldiers that were arrested by Iraki police while disquised as Irakis civilians and who killed a policeman while trying to evade capture and were found with weapons and explosives. What western media gave the Iraqi point of view ? NONE!

They were all biased against the Iraqis, no matter what the facts on the ground were.

[Eric Janson]

Some reading for those who are interested. You won't hear much about this in the mainstream media....

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-1 ... ody-asking

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-2 ... -president

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-2 ... c-evidence

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-2 ... d-israel-c

It's a huge mess no matter how you want to look at things.

[Rockie]

You think Western media is balanced when it deals with news items that show western countries in a bad light ?

Of course they are. Perfect? No. But here in the west we have freedom of the press and by and large it's something they take seriously...with some notable exceptions.

You can't seriously put western news services on the same page as the outright lies of a true propaganda mouthpiece serving a dictator. Can you?

[CpnCrunch]

Eric, as I pointed out earlier, the US recently did admit that they made a mistake in shooting up that hospital in Afghanistan. Then you have stories in the Guardian exposing British Intelligence, and the whole ridiculous incident of the government smashing up the Guardian's laptops. I think they are about as independent as it's possible to get. Try doing something like that in Russia and see what happens to the CEO of your newspaper

[Moose47]

G'day

Didn't anyone tell Putin that stealing is a Crimea?

Cheers...Chris