PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

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Illya Kuryakin
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PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Well, we all awoke to sad news this morning. Yesterday morning, we drank several several cups of coffee, wrestling with our go/no go decision. Destination, YTL. WX in YTL had been holding steady for the past eight hours or so, at 300 feet OVC. Minimums are 401 feet. We briefed the customer with a 50/50 chance of getting in. He said go. It's his money.
Long story short, we got in. But, just.
However, northbound, we were asked by centre to try to contact a certain Caravan. WTF? It was 300 OVC. Not a Caravan friendly environment.
Well, we all know the results by now.
This time of year, the WX can be a cruel mistress. Unforgiving of anyone who crosses her.
So, why is it still happening? Why are companies still pushing young pilots out the door to face this cruel mistress? Companies have instant access to current weather. They can read trends. But still, the "pop n chips" must go. WHY?
Yes, I was there yesterday. Perhaps within mere miles of this tragedy. So , I KNOW what the weather was like. But, I was sitting in the sunshine, at FL250, until the approach, breaking out with just enough vis to land at YTL. Only about 15 miles from this Caravan's destination.
I mean absolutely NO disrespect for the young pilot. I feel nothing but sorrow for his friends and family, but at the same time, I feel nothing but contempt for the system that put him there.
Be careful out there. Know when to say when. When in doubt, chicken out. Always have an escape plan. Do not be pushed beyond your limitations.
Fly safe.
Illya.
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toelessjoe
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by toelessjoe »

Plus one to that. I hate it when this happens, especially when there's absolutely no need for it.

- Toeless.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by awitzke »

A sad reminder to all pilots young and old out there that no job is worth your life. Feeling pressure to go when you feel it's not the right choice? Quit.

You can always find another job, you only get one life.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Bede »

+1 Ilya
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Can't disagree with any of that Illya!! Well said.
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Checkgear77
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Checkgear77 »

Sorry I was heated upon hearing the news. I meant no disrespect, I was commenting about some operators that I have encountered in my career and just want people to not push icing conditions. I know nothing of the company involved. Very sad news.
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Last edited by Checkgear77 on Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Cat Driver »

Deleted.
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Rookie50 »

Buffalo, Keystone, ect --- defend em'........

Wasaya, hang em' high........

It's all good, right?
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Cat Driver »

Delete.
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Rookie50
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Rookie50 »

Cat Driver wrote:
They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..
It's just interesting. We know nothing about this accident, including if it was a culture of management pressure. Yet it's bring em' to justice, very quickly.

While I understand the sentiment here --a young pilots life has been lost--- there seems to be a very fine, somewhat opaque, and moving line in this business between cheering a get er' done attitude, and very quickly switches to hang em high when it doesn't work out. Rather confusing to me at times.

Also --- I've never read any calls for criminal justice in response to any other previous accident situations on this site, that I can recall. And there have been a number with very questionable judgement by different parties, at least going by the official accident reports.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Rookie50 wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:
They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..

Also --- I've never read any calls for criminal justice in response to any other previous accident situations on this site, that I can recall. And there have been a number with very questionable judgement by different parties, at least going by the official accident reports.
Perhaps . is suggesting it's time to make companies accountable for their actions? Not entirely sure that he's incorrect on that score?
Companies have a great deal of influence over the younger pilots. Training bonds and the like can be pretty intimidating.
Too bad he feels the need to delete his post.
He may have a point. Question is, who to prosecute?
One way or another, this just has to stop.
Illya
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Rookie50 »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:
They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..

Also --- I've never read any calls for criminal justice in response to any other previous accident situations on this site, that I can recall. And there have been a number with very questionable judgement by different parties, at least going by the official accident reports.
Perhaps . is suggesting it's time to make companies accountable for their actions? Not entirely sure that he's incorrect on that score?
Companies have a great deal of influence over the younger pilots. Training bonds and the like can be pretty intimidating.
Too bad he feels the need to delete his post.
He may have a point. Question is, who to prosecute?
One way or another, this just has to stop.
Illya
I'm not at all disagreeing in the slightest.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Rookie50, I know it.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by springlocked »

A young pilot has lost his life and true to AVcanada fashion and maybe mob mentality there is an immediate call for blood and finger pointing. Damn ! The circumstances are not confirmed yet. My observation has been Wasaya has become an airline with a reputation of not pushing wx so why did this young man venture out and choose to .. run on this particular day. Was it ice, was it a failed engine, time will tell. We all know the pressures to go flying and unfortunately most are self induced. This is the pitfall of light aircraft. Pilot self dispatch system is flawed. Maybe having a discussion with a proper and licensed dispatcher could have been the one variable that might have prevented this accident. I watch it everyday with one guy flying and the next not. Ego is a very bad thing as is giving into peer pressure. Transport comes into play as well with ops specs that operators and yes pilots use the same mentality to be "legal" in their own mind. Is it safe!! is a better question! Not if it's legal!

There is a weird anomaly and a misconception with airports like YPL. 300/1 ops spec intent is not meant for outbound dispatch but a tool to land if caught due to unexpected wx. YPL like any other airport in uncontrolled airspace has VFR departure minimums and anything lower is to be conducted under IFR.

Single engine aeroplanes on wheels should only be flown at minimum altitudes which will give one a fighting chance if the stove quits. As for icing, well I don't think anything more needs to be said.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by SmokinJoe »

I know in my experience I have felt pressure from both the company and MYSELF to go when I should have stayed put. I was in pretty similar weather conditions that would have been prelevant yesterday when we lost this pilot. I made it down to a safe landing although I did not make it to my destination. But that day I thought my number was up. I'll never forget that feeling and I learned that day that no matter how much I get yelled at, told that it'll be fine, do this, do that. If I don't feel safe and comfortable I am not going anywhere. And believe me I had some shouting matches in the office about it. And what happened? No body ever wrote me up for not flying in icing conditions in the caravan.

I know with me it was like I almost had something to prove, that I could "hang" with the big boys. I eventually got to the point in my career where I said "I don't need to prove to my self, or anyone else any more that I can fly low, bust mins, fly in shitty weather. I'll just do my own thing". And that's what I did.

For anyone who is on the van now and is reading this. PLEASE RESPECT THE LIMITATIONS OF THE CARAVAN. Know your limits and damm the ops spec. If the GFA is reporting icing and you will in any way be in it DONT GO! I don't care what the training Capt says, cp, or anyone else. If they tell you you'll get hauled into the cp's office say "I dare you to!" Especially at Wasaya, you folks their have ALPA behind you and I don't think even the company will write you up for not flying in icing when their caravans are not certified for flight in it.

We all make mistakes in this business. But it's LEARNING from those mistakes that makes us better pilots, employees and people. Don't let the death of one of our own go in vain. I'm begging you.

We all lost a good person today.

Edited to add:

Maybe what we need is for companies to step up to the plate and start writing up pilots for GOING flying in those types on conditions. Instead of turning a blind eye to it. What's the cost of a life?
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by awitzke »

I was told that the pilot who was scheduled to fly with him yesterday decided to stay on the ground. Capt decided to go it alone since it was a cargo only flight.

His decision to stay put saved his life.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by timel »

+1 Illya

springlocked wrote:Pilot self dispatch system is flawed. Maybe having a discussion with a proper and licensed dispatcher could have been the one variable that might have prevented this accident. I watch it everyday with one guy flying and the next not. Ego is a very bad thing as is giving into peer pressure. Transport comes into play as well with ops specs that operators and yes pilots use the same mentality to be "legal" in their own mind. Is it safe!! is a better question! Not if it's legal!

+1 and I will add that 703 is old and defective.

Also, I never understood why it takes two pilots for pax transportation but only one pilot for cargo. Some bean counter, somewhere...
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by B208 »

. is absolutely right. There is tremendous pressure on young pilots to push limits; this often results in tragedy. The only way to remove that pressure is to HURT the companies that apply it. You hurt a company in the pocket book. If it turns out that this aircraft was dispatched into unsuitable conditions then the company's operational control system failed. Their OC should be suspended and the individuals involved should be barred from holding positions of responsibility. Also, hefty fines under the work place health and safety act.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by timel »

B208 wrote:. is absolutely right. There is tremendous pressure on young pilots to push limits; this often results in tragedy. The only way to remove that pressure is to HURT the companies that apply it. You hurt a company in the pocket book. If it turns out that this aircraft was dispatched into unsuitable conditions then the company's operational control system failed. Their OC should be suspended and the individuals involved should be barred from holding positions of responsibility. Also, hefty fines under the work place health and safety act.
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/C ... 2&lang=eng

Technically the Caravan is under the 703. So the pilot is on his own, no dispatch responsibility.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by esp803 »

At one company I worked for not too long ago, we had a policy that if one person turned around OR said no to a flight for weather, we'd ground the fleet and have a scotch, that way we'd all be grounded for the day. This policy was enforced whether it was the most experienced pilot or the least experienced pilot, no matter the cargo, passenger or client, and the system worked very well.

E
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by medi-whacked »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:
They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..

Also --- I've never read any calls for criminal justice in response to any other previous accident situations on this site, that I can recall. And there have been a number with very questionable judgement by different parties, at least going by the official accident reports.
Perhaps . is suggesting it's time to make companies accountable for their actions? Not entirely sure that he's incorrect on that score?
Companies have a great deal of influence over the younger pilots. Training bonds and the like can be pretty intimidating.
Too bad he feels the need to delete his post.
He may have a point. Question is, who to prosecute?
One way or another, this just has to stop.
Illya
I do believe that all aviation companies have an "accountable executive" That might be a good place to start with a prosecution. No?
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by pelmet »

How about we prosecute those who call for prosecution of prople with absolutely no detailed evidence of what happened or any useful info at all.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by co-joe »

esp803 wrote:At one company I worked for not too long ago, we had a policy that if one person turned around OR said no to a flight for weather, we'd ground the fleet and have a scotch, that way we'd all be grounded for the day. This policy was enforced whether it was the most experienced pilot or the least experienced pilot, no matter the cargo, passenger or client, and the system worked very well.

E

You'd only have to threaten me with Scotch and I'd be running away screaming. Yuck!


Seriously though, Its interesting how difficult it is to say no, even though you know you should, but what a relief it is when someone else makes the decision for you.
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Gorgons »

Yeah sounds great, all for one, one for all!

Until your working for an outfit that works with a performance based pay scheme. No pressure at all knowing your decision is going to cost the rest of the guys money! Sorry but unless everybody is on a flat salary with no performance bonuses i.e. milage etc that plan isn't going to ease any pressure to go at all.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

pelmet wrote:How about we prosecute those who call for prosecution of prople with absolutely no detailed evidence of what happened or any useful info at all. Or better yet go move to some shthole third world country where your type of thinking is the reason why they are a shthole third world country.
Look who's calling the kettle black....
Illya
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