Wasaya caravan missing

[PilotDAR]

I like what Whistlerboy02 has written.

There's a balance, and comradery and decency would suggest that finding the middle would be nice. Perhaps some people have a good thought and are reluctant to post. Perhaps other people have an axe to grind, and are too eager to post. Somewhere in the middle is the better. There is no best in these circumstances.

Waiting for the report delays thinking and possible learning resulting from the event - particularly seasonal thinking and refresher. If a post here makes a new pilot think twice next week, about continuing into the icing, or double checking the fuel, or whatever, and lives, this thread might have just saved a life. If thoughts are suppressed, that new pilot might never read that future report, or have an event in the mean time. In that case, something that we could have done, failed by omission to support that pilot. On the other hand, yes, Nick's new wife could be reading, and be needlessly saddened - we think of her too as a part of our extended pilot family, and think before we write....

[Gorgons]

Previous comment self-deleted, in retrospect it added nothing worthwhile to the conversation.

[single_swine_herder]

FrankestFrank .... what a superb post.

[springlocked]

There was no flight plan on flightaware, so it was likely they were VFR. This is confirmed in the CADOR:

Now that is a false statement. It's all uncontrolled airspace so no IFR flight plan with ATC required.

The long and the short of it, type “C” dispatch has no place in operations the size and scope

I hear an echo -- I'll even restate my opinion - Pilot self dispatch has no business in any IFR commercial operations. Smaller companies can sub-contract and larger ones have their own but self dispatch should be eliminated. The nay sayers will call fowl but costs are a non issue in the grand scale of things.

[pelmet]

How high is Tarp Hill compared to the surrounding terrain?

[Jean-Pierre]

How high is Tarp Hill compared to the surrounding terrain?

About 280' above Pickle Lake elevation.

From what I've been told the claim that Wasaya has given up its old way applies to the sched side only. They do their RNAV to minimum and if they miss oh well. Try again tomorrow. Freight side maybe might be the same as it has always been. Maybe there is some extra pressure due to lack of aircraft and the busy time of year. Plus weather was bad for awhile. They need to update the fleet but financial just isn't there. Maybe no one tell him you go flying but pilot aren't blind to their company situation. There are human factor at play in every flight.

[TheFrankestFrank]

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[trey kule]

FrankestFrank .... what a superb post.

Plus 1. Superb!


I notice you have only posted 17 times in the last few years. I think maybe we could all benefit from more posts from you.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Frank...good post.
I've never submitted an SMS report. Which in a way speaks volumes for the operation I'm with. Never seen the need. Personally.
While I agree with "I'm not saying final go/no go decision should not rest with the PIC...." or words to that affect, I do believe there is enough influence "in the wings" to sway that decision in a direction it should not go? Thoughts?
What Trey says....post more often.
Illya

[sstaurus]

Couldn't agree with Frank more. At my company, I hate having to worry about being questioned after the fact about other aspects that have nothing to do with safety. More support from the company would be greatly welcomed... As well as fully licensed dispatchers.

[single_swine_herder]

Being questioned about a decision?

Well, what the heck do you expect to happen?

Somebody asking "what's up?" by a manager or supervisor, or a co-worker affected by your decision doesn't equate to being tied to a chair, then beaten with a rubber hose and a phone book for crying out loud. To them, it might just look like you're sitting around with a vacant facial expression and your thumb up your butt for no reason.

If you're not prepared to at least explain what is happening and why its the way it is so that other people can make plans accordingly, then maybe think this through a bit before becoming indignant.

I've overheard pilots speaking in the crew room stating .... "I was questioned about my decision to not go when the weather was at or below minimums and the nearest alternate was 2,000 miles away." The inference was as if he had been interrogated at The Hanoi Hilton about the newest countermeasure electronics to defeat the targeting of surface to air missiles.

This may come as an unbelievable statement, but when you're asked about something, it may actually be for the purpose of explaining something to the customer, other staff, etc. and defending your correct decision.

SSH

[bobcaygeon]

Couldn't agree with Frank more. At my company, I hate having to worry about being questioned after the fact about other aspects that have nothing to do with safety. More support from the company would be greatly welcomed... As well as fully licensed dispatchers.

Licensed dispatchers are hardly the solution, pilots love to question/ignore them all the time ei fuel loads and then mock them amongst their peers over beers later.
It also gives them someone else to share the blame with.

The only place I've experienced a significant positive influence was at a major airline and that was only because the flight crews there couldn't be bothered to gather the data themselves so they couldn't legitimately question the dispatchers decision. I also have no idea which station has a better fuel price or pax loads and when I should/shouldn't tanker fuel.

[mbav8r]

Swine_herder,
You sound like you might be one of those management types who is asking the questions.
First, unless the pilot has simply stated I'm not going, without any kind of additional information, there is no need to come looking for justification from management! That in itself is intimidation and why a dispatcher would be a good thing in such an environment, a middle layer between the pilot and management. Disclaimer, ass kissing dispatchers will defeat the purpose of having one.
Most pilots would not likely feel pressured from a co worker asking about their decision, in this situation, it is more often benign and not threatening in any way.
I have been questioned many times on my decision to carry extra fuel or not go. I have been told by the president of the company that my 45 minute reserve fuel was to go around a line of storms 80 miles wide, with pireps of significant deviations between me and the destination. To which I explained, it was for unforeseen and this was foreseen, this turned into me having to sternly state I would not go without the fuel or until the storms we not a factor. No alternate within range and told by CP if I didn't go I would be fired, this was after telling dispatch exactly why I could NOT go. I have many examples of this type of intimidation tactics and after encountering this at several companies I nearly quit flying.
Also, if I were the only pilot in each company to encounter this, I would've looked internally, however the only ones who weren't questioned it seemed were the ones that would go to 200' on an NDB approach into little grand, I wonder if that guy is still alive, I'm genuinely curious, I should look him up!
So if you've worked for only companies where management is strictly trying to defend your decisions, good for you, this is not the norm!
The only thing management should be telling the customer is that "they are certain that the decision was made with their safety in mind" and that is it!
I will concede it's possible to have a pilot who never goes, when all others are, this is the only situation that requires management intervention.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I've never met a pilot who would go VFR with 300 foot ceilings without some "encouragement" from somebody to do so. Take that for what it's worth.....
Illya

[oldncold]

Many Many times questioned about trips so developed or learned to give percentages scenarios > phone rings 2 am, gotta trip for ya right i will call ya back in 5 min ck the weather no ice or tstorms but really low ceilings and fog . so phone back say welll gotta about a 10 percent chance of getting in there tonight 3am and 90 percent you wont . and if we wait till about 10 or 11 in the morning looks like about 60 percent we get in 40per cent dont. what would you like me to do

then the balll moves back to there mgt /dispatch not my problem who pays the gas if they want yourto go look I go BUT ONLY FLY TO MINS ON THE PLATE and the best defense was always after going missed and then headn home f/o and I look at each other and say did you see anything reply negative . mgt would always try to divide n conquer so having the plane and in one peice and both crewmembers say ing didnt see shit at mins case closed .


oldn cold wish for all please be safe out there this holiday whether it be flying or drivng to grannies house keep your head in the game beacuse many around you out the roads arent peace

[sprucemonkey]

A very respectful resting place for an aviator. The scrap yard in YQT would have given you a few bucks for that scrap metal. One less employee may have not received a pay cut.

[Illya Kuryakin]

A very respectful resting place for an aviator. The scrap yard in YQT would have given you a few bucks for that scrap metal. One less employee may have not received a pay cut.

Pretty much sums up the 300/1 ops spec.
Illya

[Jean-Pierre]

Imagine having to go to throw your trash at the dump every week and seeing the plane your friend died in.

[pelmet]

Planes in dumps up north are nothing new. I have pictures of several different types at a dump where I used to fly into. Some of them pretty big aircraft.

[Black_Tusk]

There's a few crashed planes hiding in the woods next to YXL airport... painted a drab brown to hide the logo of the company that was operating it.