MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS - The PARADOX

[Mercator]

Seen some minimum requirements lately and thought of seeking some advice from old timers.

A king air 350 or B1900 FO requires closer to 2000 tt and 500 Multi Pic to be looked at, the Crux is that the pay ranges from 29000 to 32000 at its best in places like Calgary or Toronto .

Obviously there is an oversupply of resumes which meet those requirements , that smaller operators seek high minimums and offer slim pay checks.

It takes an average of 4-5 years to get to those minimums, that is if you land your first bush/ instructing gig right away( the industry average is 3 years to your first stint).

So after 5-7 years of building time and washing cars as a rampie for an operator you bring yourself an ATPL and those minimums.

The question I like to present is ( as redundant as it sounds & the choices are )

Why do operators pay so little?

A) Oversupply of qualified resumes
B) Pilots ready to accept any money to get on a plane
C) The money offered is just right ( it will buy you a house and car in any city in Canada)
D) Operators hardly break even and can't offer any more.

Thanks for your answers, just trying to gauge if more people are thinking on the same lines.

Cheers!

[awitzke]

Wasaya, PasCo, CMA B1900 FO, 1000TT
Alkan Air, Borek, Fast Air, Missinippi, West Wint King Air FO mins 500-1000TT depending where.

[schnitzel2k3]

Yeah, the only places I've seen asking big F/O time like were Encore and Porter due to their desire to upgrade.

Anything flying a 1900 for FO at least is seeking 1500 with preferably some multi time at best (not pic). Most places with 350s are lower.

Now Captain spots on those machines require lots more (3000+ / 500+mpic).

That being said, moving up in metal generally means taking a drop in pay....why? Something something...economics.

S.

[trey kule]

Is the pay issue really a mystery?

Large supply of pilots who are willing to work for slave wages, do non pilot associated jobs, and anything else you could think up to chase the big shiny metal dragon's tail.
Which BTW, is seeing deterioration in their wages and working conditions. They have realized how low the people they are hiring will go.
Any one of them will tell you that is what you have to do, and if they dont there are 50 standing behind them that will do it.
It is a fact of our industry here in Canada.

The real tradgedy is those that will not only work under these conditions, but are willing to fly poorly maintained olanes, or in conditions no one should be flying. They are the real danger to others, and will keep the wages down forever if there is no change.

Why would an operator pay more?

[sstocker31]

Pilot whores....thats the reason

[trey kule]

Well that is sort of what they are. But most are young, have the dream, and are subject to their flight school marketing. Though, in the last few years I have seen many that do not really seem to love flying, but simply want to get to the airlines. Instructor time. Bush time. Small operations. They are all just stepping stones to the big show. Get the checks in the logbook and one of the new Mickey mouse ATPLs, and off you go.

It only takes a few sleezeball pilots and operators to keep the whole thing going.

[Mercator]

Hopefully the pay goes up now since oil it's in over supply now and airlines are finally making significant profits.

[AirMail]

Hopefully the pay goes up now since oil it's in over supply now and airlines are finally making significant profits.

hahaha pay go up.... OMG... STOP! lol that's soo funny.

[bobcaygeon]

Sorry to tell you but AC and Jazz just lowered their payscales for newbies by creating B scales for pay, pension, working rules, etc. Their unions agreed to sell out the unborn. We always eat our young so why would operators pay more. Encore has always been a B scale so has Sky Regional. Doesn't make me proud to be a pilot nor consider myself a professional.

Just saying

[BTD]

While jazz has decreased starting pay, air canada increased pay for the first 2 years on the last 10 year agreement. There is still much to be desired in how the payscale is formatted.

[bobcaygeon]

While jazz has decreased starting pay, air canada increased pay for the first 2 years on the last 10 year agreement. There is still much to be desired in how the payscale is formatted.

"Status" used to mean you had a treaty card not what pay scale your on.
AC's B scale started with the Rouge deal. Pretty soon formula pay will be like a unicorn.

[180]

The problem is "glamour".

Do people tell you "Oh man, you have the coolest job in the world!"?

If so, you probably don't get paid very well. At least not until you have 10 to 15 years of skin in the game.

Same reason why ACMG mountain guides who spend 10+ years getting accredited and risk their lives every day at work have second jobs bartending. Same reason why ski patrollers who are up before dawn, traversing gnarly wind blown snow loaded ridges in the dark with a backpack full of dynamite make $18/hr. Same reason BC Lion's cheerleaders basically earn minimum wage.

You never hear a plumber complaining about his pay cheque do you?

"Glamorous" jobs pay shit. And shitty jobs pay.

[BTD]

While jazz has decreased starting pay, air canada increased pay for the first 2 years on the last 10 year agreement. There is still much to be desired in how the payscale is formatted.

"Status" used to mean you had a treaty card not what pay scale your on.
AC's B scale started with the Rouge deal. Pretty soon formula pay will be like a unicorn.

There is no status pay anymore. While there are b scales for pilots at rouge, it is not the new hires. Rouge or not new hires are on the same pay scale for the first 4 years. The first 2 of those years now pays more than it did 5 years ago. Don't take this as me saying it is perfect.

[AWOS]

The bar is continuously being set lower and pilots are just willing to take it in order to pursue their goals. Future employers are going to see what they were willing to go through to get there and realize that they only have to set the bar a little bit higher than what they were at in order to satisfy them.

Eventually it has to get so bad that it starts to get good again....right?

[springlocked]

Why would pay go up since NG is moving towards the skill level of anyone who can master a smart phone. Automation is not our friend.

[Panama Jack]

Sorry to tell you but AC and Jazz just lowered their payscales for newbies by creating B scales for pay, pension, working rules, etc. Their unions agreed to sell out the unborn. We always eat our young so why would operators pay more. Encore has always been a B scale so has Sky Regional. Doesn't make me proud to be a pilot nor consider myself a professional.

Just saying

In the case of Jazz, I don't think they had much of a choice. Costs were going up and it was either a case of becoming more competitive or being redundant. Jazz is not an airline in a traditional sense- they sell their services to Air Canada. Air Canada looks to companies to provide regional service at best value; Air Canada farms it out to also be competitive because its own costs have gotten to high vis a vis the competition.

Have you ever heard of the US regional airline Comair?

[SuperchargedRS]

Seen some minimum requirements lately and thought of seeking some advice from old timers.

A king air 350 or B1900 FO requires closer to 2000 tt and 500 Multi Pic to be looked at, the Crux is that the pay ranges from 29000 to 32000 at its best in places like Calgary or Toronto .

Obviously there is an oversupply of resumes which meet those requirements , that smaller operators seek high minimums and offer slim pay checks.

It takes an average of 4-5 years to get to those minimums, that is if you land your first bush/ instructing gig right away( the industry average is 3 years to your first stint).

So after 5-7 years of building time and washing cars as a rampie for an operator you bring yourself an ATPL and those minimums.

The question I like to present is ( as redundant as it sounds & the choices are )

Why do operators pay so little?

A) Oversupply of qualified resumes
B) Pilots ready to accept any money to get on a plane
C) The money offered is just right ( it will buy you a house and car in any city in Canada)
D) Operators hardly break even and can't offer any more.

Thanks for your answers, just trying to gauge if more people are thinking on the same lines.

Cheers!

If it takes you 3+ years after your CPL to get a flying job you're probably going to have a ruff time making it in the industry.

I made 30k my first year of flying and have made more and more each year.

The folks who will take entry level wages with ATP experience, there is something wrong with them, ether in their self value or they have something on their record and will take whatever they can get.

[xsbank]

You are the only part of a very expensive airplane operation where the costs are negotiable. Try cutting the money you pay to the fueler? Or the guy selling you engines or tires? Navcanada fees? Or the parking fees at Pearson? YOU are the only supplier (you supply your labour and expertise and assume all the risks) that is willing to do more for less. You are willing to work the longest hours in any of the IATA countries and eager to sell your expertise to the lowest bidder.

The fact that wages go down every year is your own fault. Sorry.

[DanWEC]

The Internet doesn't have a big enough plus sign for that.
Thank you.

[goingnowherefast]

...the guy selling you engines or tires?

I agree with you for the most part. Companies can and do cheap out on maintenance as well. I've seen companies shop around all of North America for the cheapest turbine disk. The shop A quotes the overhaul at 10 grand cheaper than shop B, despite shop B engines having less problems. Apprentices are cheaper than mechanics, so they hire lots of apprentices. The apprentice/AME ratio so bad, that work often leaves the hangar unsupervised.