ME training..

[Strega]

Tonight I was doing some recurrent ME training with a fairly "experienced" pilot... It is my belief this pilot would be killed if he actually had a real engine failure.

To all the newbies out there.. watch this video.. Learn it, fly it, live it. Learning a rhythm is 1000 times more important than digging out some stupid checklist..

Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVcuDHvtcMQ

[Nark]

Who advocates running a checklist, before any memory items are completed?

Perhaps I'm not "experienced."

[Strega]

Nark,

The guy I flew with, instantly muddled for the checklist to see what to do next, and had no Idea what was happening.... I actually shut the fuel off in cruise, and he was completely over his head. Im sure there are tons of people like him out there that dont have a clue what is important, and what is not.

[Nark]

Scary thought.

Memorizing things sucks, but it's part of our responsibilities as pilots. Fractions of seconds count in our business.(sometimes)

In the transport jets I fly, immediate reaction is not required. We wait until Control is maintained, then run action items.

In the multi engine helicopter I fly, immediate action memory items are vital. Depending on the environmentals and weight, we can bleed the rotor, and lead to a much worse scenario.

In the multi piston I used to fly, inaction would result in -2/-300 fpm descent.

[Shiny Side Up]

I actually shut the fuel off in cruise,

Wait. You actually shut the engine down in flight?

[Strega]

No. turning the fuel off is not a "shut down" windmilling prop is not a "shut down"

I actually shut the fuel off in cruise,

Wait. You actually shut the engine down in flight?

[Shiny Side Up]

Just needed clarification.

[PilotDAR]

Wait. You actually shut the engine down in flight?

Y'mean I've been doing it wrong all these years?









By the way Strega, good video link, thanks!

[springlocked]

Jeezasssss - I hope those are actual shut downs and not just fukin around unless of course you have deep pockets to fix the engine damage. Then by all means ---- pull those levers, have at 'er and enjoy. Piston engines are like a woman, should never be abused

If I were an owner I would sh1t can anyone who did this to an engine in the cold wx and operating piston engine a/c there would be no winter training allowed at all.

[Strega]

If I were an owner I would sh1t can anyone who did this to an engine in the cold wx and operating piston engine a/c there would be no winter training allowed at all.

Its clear you are not and owner, and is also clear you do not understand shock cooling..

I have always tried to muster up the balls to shut down, and feather both in an AC50... Maybe someday

[PilotDAR]

Yeah, shutting down an engine in flight is not my preference, however, some certification flight testing requires actual shut downs to demonstrate compliance of Vmca, and feather/unfeather function for two. Indeed, one of those tests turned up a system malfunction which was really worth knowing about. After a fix, and retest, it was a pass.

My inflight shut downs are planned, and preceded with many minutes of gradual cooling, and then a long warm up after restart, before power is developed. No snapping engine controls up and down - very gradual whenever possible...... I know that pilots like to be confident that the aircraft will do what it should when required, so at some point, it's gotta be tested.

I'm not qualified to comment on training methods, so it's not my place to suggest or deny engine shut downs during training, but during certification it is not optional, you must actually do it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

From the Transport Canada Multi Engine Rating Instructor Guide

Simulate the engine failure by reducing the throttle to idle, while calling out "simulated".
Complete the engine failure drill in accordance with the POH or the procedures outlined on the
previous page.
When these checks have been completed, and you are ready to simulate feathering the propeller,
adjust the manifold pressure and rpm to simulate by setting zero thrust. Consult the POH for zero
thrust power settings prior to flight. Complete the engine securing items by referring to the
appropriate emergency checklist.
Ensure that all procedures are carried out completely and correctly. Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed.
Emphasize that control of the aeroplane is the prime concern. Ensure that the aeroplane is
banked 3-5 degrees towards the operating engine. Also, lookout must not be allowed to suffer,
even though you and the student will be busy inside the aeroplane.

Continental engines also has published guidance recommending that their fuel injected engines should not be fuel starved in flight as they may not promptly restart when fuel flow is resumed. They also indicate that the engine may be impossible to restart under certain conditions due to a fuel system vapour lock.

[PilotDAR]

One of the elements I have been aware which can be missed in training (and even Flight Manuals ) is that some propellers will not feather below a certain RPM. If the pilot is unaware, and allows the engine to slow or stop before selecting feather, it might not. I tested for, and demonstrated this less than desirable characteristic during a certification project, and the result was the addition of a note in the Flight Manual for the modified plane warning of this.

I am fortunate for the occasional opportunity to test or experience through the "full" procedure. It is an unfortunate reality that the training environment does not always enable that experience for all pilots.

[Strega]

From the Transport Canada Multi Engine Rating Instructor Guide

Simulate the engine failure by reducing the throttle to idle, while calling out "simulated".
Complete the engine failure drill in accordance with the POH or the procedures outlined on the
previous page.
When these checks have been completed, and you are ready to simulate feathering the propeller,
adjust the manifold pressure and rpm to simulate by setting zero thrust. Consult the POH for zero
thrust power settings prior to flight. Complete the engine securing items by referring to the
appropriate emergency checklist.
Ensure that all procedures are carried out completely and correctly. Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed.
Emphasize that control of the aeroplane is the prime concern. Ensure that the aeroplane is
banked 3-5 degrees towards the operating engine. Also, lookout must not be allowed to suffer,
even though you and the student will be busy inside the aeroplane.

Continental engines also has published guidance recommending that their fuel injected engines should not be fuel starved in flight as they may not promptly restart when fuel flow is resumed. They also indicate that the engine may be impossible to restart under certain conditions due to a fuel system vapour lock.

"Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed"

I disagree with this...time is of the essence when dealing with an engine failure -especially moments after take off.

[CpnCrunch]

So, was it a fuel-injected engine or not Strega?

[7ECA]

"Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed"

I disagree with this...time is of the essence when dealing with an engine failure -especially moments after take off.

The quoted except is for EX. 6 - Engine Failure (Cruise Flight) And Manoeuvring With One Engine Inoperative.

Seeing as how this is only a simulated engine failure - brought on by the instructor reducing power to idle on one engine, the situation can be easily rectified if things begin going off the rails. And this will also be the students first introduction to an engine failure in the multi. You're much better off to take your time the first time around and get it right (Primacy), then going ape-shit fast and having a royal SNAFU.

When you move on to EX. 10 - Engine Failure During Takeoff or Overshoot, you have this except:

Review Essential Background Knowledge from Exercise #6, Engine Failure (Cruise Flight), as required.

• Because this scenario, in real life, would happen close to the ground, there is a greater urgency and less room for error than for “Engine Failure in Flight”.
• A prompt and correct sequence of actions is required to prevent misidentification of the failed engine.
• Impress upon the student that the sequence of actions must be in accordance with the “Engine Failure on Takeoff/Liftoff” checklist.

[Strega]

So, was it a fuel-injected engine or not Strega?

Why?

[Strega]

Continental engines also has published guidance recommending that their fuel injected engines should not be fuel starved in flight as they may not promptly restart when fuel flow is resumed. They also indicate that the engine may be impossible to restart under certain conditions due to a fuel system vapour lock.

ummm ,,, ok?

[Big Pistons Forever]

"Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed"

I disagree with this...time is of the essence when dealing with an engine failure -especially moments after take off.

I made the assumption that you turned off the fuel while the aircraft was in cruise flight, which is why I copied the TC advice for simulated engine failures during training while in cruise flight. I sure hope you were not turning the fuel off "moments after takeoff" as that IMO would be a very bad idea......

[Strega]

"Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed"

I disagree with this...time is of the essence when dealing with an engine failure -especially moments after take off.

I made the assumption that you turned off the fuel while the aircraft was in cruise flight, which is why I copied the TC advice for simulated engine failures during training while in cruise flight. I sure hope you were not turning the fuel off "moments after takeoff" as that IMO would be a very bad idea......

Big pistons,

I was turning off the fuel moments after a take off in the air.. (and no the altitude we were at the engines are not harmed by sudden stoppage due to a fuel supply interruption)

I have run tanks dry in cruise in singles and twins and have NEVER had any issues caused because of it.

[CpnCrunch]

There was a thread about this a few years ago, with a few people saying they had difficultly restarting the engine again:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =3&t=58510

Overall it doesn't seem like a very smart idea, for a variety of reasons.

No. turning the fuel off is not a "shut down" windmilling prop is not a "shut down"

The engine might be turning, but it is still "shut down". There is no combustion happening, and you still need to get the fuel flowing again, and then restart the combustion process. Just because it has worked for you in the past doesn't mean it's a good idea. There's a difference between running a tank dry and the engine coughing for a second or two, vs deliberately shutting off fuel for a 30 seconds (or however long you did it for).

I also find it kind of amusing that you're comparing BPF's instantaneous decision to save his life, versus a calculated decision by you to shut down an engine in-flight.

[springlocked]

Nice to see the thread has no gone from bravado to thinking. Sure engines are shut down for more reasons than failure but at the end of the day to arbitrarily fail them for fun or to intentionally sh1t can an engine for effect is costly and possibly dangerous. Trainers must be trained especially when it comes to piston engines on how to properly handle even power reductions. The bigger the engine the bigger the issues. Geared flat engines are the worst. They are simply time bombs. I know of a company in the past that was operating cessna 404's and how they always had premature failures and engine changes on the #1 engines. It emerged that this was almost always the engine that during engine out simulations(critical engine) was pulled. They actually stopped doing power cut engine failures training in the 404 and the engine issues all but disappeared. The training pilot would only retard the engine power slightly during training. TC didn't like it but were told it a polite way that they were not paying for the engines and it was SOP.

Now big round engines - same formula bigger the engine the bigger the issue with props driving engines. While I have not flown the biggest I have considerable time behind a R2800. Compared to a R985 the issue is exponentially more critical.

Airborne training is outdated and really does not give pilots(especially at entry level jobs) the proper tools to deal with the unknown and the "startle factor". Simulators are but we are saddled with "it is what it is". In this day an age of computers I'm sure the technology is certainly there to develop a full motion simulator that you could program light twins into and give people "proper" training and actual failures and procedures to their completion with all the right buttons and levers in the required position. Sadly money always trumps safety.

OH ya -- for me Bob Hoover I'm not

[Rockie]

I don't do multi engine training but have shut down and restarted the mighty F404 many times during the course of maintenance test flights. Every time I did so I was in safe flight conditions and close to the base for a quick recovery because I never counted on getting it going again. And that was an extremely reliable jet engine with the other one more than capable of powering the airplane all by itself. I would take the same precautionary attitude in a piston twin multiplied by 10, and I would never actually shut it down if it might cause damage or the manufacturer recommended against it.

For training simulators are a wonderful thing. You can do all kinds of things you wouldn't dream of doing in an actual airplane, and you can do them over and over again until you get good at it.

[Strega]

after 1 engine shut down during a multi training flight do you use the electric fuel pump when firing the starter or do you do a hot start untill it fires ?

Interesting thread capn crunch....

Maybe learn how your engines work, and you wont have any issues re starting them.... Do you even have a me rating? or more than the me rating worth of me flying?

is Bob hoover "not very smart" ? (as you say I am)

FYI Bob Hoover has actually watched me fly.. I took his pointers to heart...

[Strega]

This is why you should train for events that hopefully will never happen, it the most realistic means possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

Aviation kills kids.