Unpaid Company Groundschool

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Rookie50
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Rookie50 »

co-joe wrote:Well, you could always ask the CP if they would consider paying you. Never hurts to ask honestly and with integrity for money.

But, Bring that inflated sense of entitlement or better yet, bring the labour code with you and I guarantee the ramp work you've done that got your foot in the door will be for naught.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be a pilot?

This the point right here. In an industry that appears like its full of willing applicants, going through some labour code exercise as a newbie might bring some satisfaction, and hey you might even win. Yeah, and it's going to put you at the top of that choice job's list down the road, too. Not.

It's the same in my industry, where, (and I'm not calling the poster or anyone this -- so chill) snot nosed 22 year olds with fresh MBA's arrogantly feel entitled to 100K jobs right off the bat with Goldman Sachs. They are everywhere.

It's a hard lesson when they find out they know absolutely nothing and are barely qualified to sweep a floor. Entitlement gets you no where but labled, which is extremely hard to shake once it happens.

Pay your dues, ace the groundschool, stand out as an exceptional employee. You'll get noticed and promoted as that's a rare quality. So rare from my experience it's likely to fall on deaf ears.

I'm a business owner. I'm telling you the way it is,like or not.

And why I am in business still, after 18 years? Because I worked my tail off at every job I ever had prior, back to cleaning toilets, long ago.
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Last edited by Rookie50 on Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by PROC_HDG »

Just when you think the green machine can't get any sleazier.

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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by teacher »

co-joe wrote:Well, you could always ask the CP if they would consider paying you. Never hurts to ask honestly and with integrity for money.

But, Bring that inflated sense of entitlement or better yet, bring the labour code with you and I guarantee the ramp work you've done that got your foot in the door will be for naught.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be a pilot?
....and this is exactly why we are where we are today.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by cncpc »

teacher wrote:
co-joe wrote:Well, you could always ask the CP if they would consider paying you. Never hurts to ask honestly and with integrity for money.

But, Bring that inflated sense of entitlement or better yet, bring the labour code with you and I guarantee the ramp work you've done that got your foot in the door will be for naught.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be a pilot?
....and this is exactly why we are where we are today.
Yep. Because of enablers.
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Sendit
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Sendit »

springlocked wrote:From what you are saying your company considers that you are not paid on your time off. Your pay is based on hours or days worked (at 80/ week and working 2 on and 2 off you still don't even qualify for overtime federally) It is your time off and if the company indicates it's optional to do the ground school you have no basis to ask for money. If they say it's mandatory then you have a case but i'm sure they would never say this and simply give your spot to someone willing to donate days off towards getting ahead. Maybe this is morally wrong but not illegal. It goes down the road of training bonds for aircraft upgrades after being with the company and working through your first bond. I think to the letter of the law this could be illegal but once you sign the contract you are done. Too many ways to submarine a "trouble maker" so on it goes. Advocates very rarely get ahead in this business, especially at the entry level.

Sad but so very true

This is not ENTIRELY true. You can not be paid below the minimum standard as set out by law. EVEN IF YOU AGREE TO IT! Let's say minimum wage is $10/her and you sign a contract that says you will work for $8/hr. You are still entitled to the extra $2/hr. You can not agree to earn less then the minimum standard. Some people figure "ooooo I signed to it so therefore I guess it's what I get". No! It doesnt work that way.
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springlocked
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by springlocked »

This is not ENTIRELY true.
-- well I beg to differ since there is no federal minimum wage. It was removed in 1996 so being a federally regulated industry it is what it is.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by rxl »

[quote="co-joe"]Well, you could always ask the CP if they would consider paying you. Never hurts to ask honestly and with integrity for money.

But, Bring that inflated sense of entitlement or better yet, bring the labour code with you and I guarantee the ramp work you've done that got your foot in the door will be for naught.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be a pilot?[quote="co-joe"]

co-joe,

What other tiny lapses in personal integrity would you recommend to an aspiring "professional pilot" in achieving their goal?

Since when is it an "inflated sense of entitlement" to expect to be paid for your time in carrying out your employer's business?
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by co-joe »

Ok so maybe inflated sense of entitlement was harsh. Sorry for assuming.

But here it is. In 97 Perimeted did an SA226TC groundschool at my college, the top marks all got jobs and they're all airline pilots now and have been for years. Any guesses if it was paid? Any guesses who paid for manuals and training materials? This isn't some new trick the green bastard is pulling. If you want a job in this industry you make sacrifices or you get born with a silver horseshoe up your butt. We all know someone who was the golden child, or knew someone, but for the rest it's hard work, sacrifice, and timing. Period.

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one. Otherwise how about a different career because this one is an uphill slope. Take it or leave it. Their groundschools have been unpaid for a solid 19 years now and probably a lot longer, and you didn't know this? This IS your stepping stone. Take it or leave it and move on. But if you take it, give 110 for the full 60 or prepare to be a healthy scratch.

If you take it, in a few years, you'll probably get on with West Jet, only to find that they barely pay for groundschool and you have to pay for your own accommodations while in Calgary. You could say that it only ends when we stop taking it...ha ha ha, have you looked around the room lately? No pilot shortage of that magnitude yet I'm afraid. If you're willing to die on that hill for our betterment I applaud you, you unemployed martyr.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by fish4life »

When I was at Perimeter I got paid for GS
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by ahramin »

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea for the future of our profession to tell anyone smart enough to figure out that you should be paid for coming in on your days off "suck it up or go somewhere else". The smart ones WILL go somewhere else and who are we left with?
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Tail-Chaser »

99% sure that my present employer pays for ground school. The previous company I worked for, both 703, didn't. Hit and miss I suppose.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Rookie50 »

co-joe wrote:Ok so maybe inflated sense of entitlement was harsh. Sorry for assuming.

But here it is. In 97 Perimeted did an SA226TC groundschool at my college, the top marks all got jobs and they're all airline pilots now and have been for years. Any guesses if it was paid? Any guesses who paid for manuals and training materials? This isn't some new trick the green bastard is pulling. If you want a job in this industry you make sacrifices or you get born with a silver horseshoe up your butt. We all know someone who was the golden child, or knew someone, but for the rest it's hard work, sacrifice, and timing. Period.

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one. Otherwise how about a different career because this one is an uphill slope. Take it or leave it. Their groundschools have been unpaid for a solid 19 years now and probably a lot longer, and you didn't know this? This IS your stepping stone. Take it or leave it and move on. But if you take it, give 110 for the full 60 or prepare to be a healthy scratch.

If you take it, in a few years, you'll probably get on with West Jet, only to find that they barely pay for groundschool and you have to pay for your own accommodations while in Calgary. You could say that it only ends when we stop taking it...ha ha ha, have you looked around the room lately? No pilot shortage of that magnitude yet I'm afraid. If you're willing to die on that hill for our betterment I applaud you, you unemployed martyr.
Couldn't agree more. Except a rampant sense of entitlement is everywhere among entry level employees --- in every industry, IMO. Not too strong a word. The whole world is truly your oyster, for the few willing to stand out. It really isn't that hard, just do what most aren't willing to do. One can do that without being abused.

It's a free market, lots of willing pilots it would seem, sorry to say as entry level employees, there isn't a ton of bargaining power.

The way to change that, is earn respect, responsibility, and rewards will follow.

But they must be earned.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Sendit »

Rookie50 wrote:
co-joe wrote:Ok so maybe inflated sense of entitlement was harsh. Sorry for assuming.

But here it is. In 97 Perimeted did an SA226TC groundschool at my college, the top marks all got jobs and they're all airline pilots now and have been for years. Any guesses if it was paid? Any guesses who paid for manuals and training materials? This isn't some new trick the green bastard is pulling. If you want a job in this industry you make sacrifices or you get born with a silver horseshoe up your butt. We all know someone who was the golden child, or knew someone, but for the rest it's hard work, sacrifice, and timing. Period.

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one. Otherwise how about a different career because this one is an uphill slope. Take it or leave it. Their groundschools have been unpaid for a solid 19 years now and probably a lot longer, and you didn't know this? This IS your stepping stone. Take it or leave it and move on. But if you take it, give 110 for the full 60 or prepare to be a healthy scratch.

If you take it, in a few years, you'll probably get on with West Jet, only to find that they barely pay for groundschool and you have to pay for your own accommodations while in Calgary. You could say that it only ends when we stop taking it...ha ha ha, have you looked around the room lately? No pilot shortage of that magnitude yet I'm afraid. If you're willing to die on that hill for our betterment I applaud you, you unemployed martyr.
Couldn't agree more. Except a rampant sense of entitlement is everywhere among entry level employees --- in every industry, IMO. Not too strong a word. The whole world is truly your oyster, for the few willing to stand out. It really isn't that hard, just do what most aren't willing to do. One can do that without being abused.

It's a free market, lots of willing pilots it would seem, sorry to say as entry level employees, there isn't a ton of bargaining power.

The way to change that, is earn respect, responsibility, and rewards will follow.

But they must be earned.
This is the poorest attitude you could have. Why is it "just the way it is". Why not change the way it is to they way it's supposed to be. This is what is wrong with our industry. Too many people who are ignorant and think of only themselves. "Oh I'll do it for less", or "oh I'll do it when he wont", or "oh you don't have to pay me I'll do it for free". Why is this ok to you. I'm sure if someone offered to work for free you'd be saying "don't whore yourself out". Employees have responsibilities but SO DO EMPLOYERS!

People on here like to complain about those who pay for their own PPC's or work for free but man oh man, someone wants to get paid for training and some loose their shit.

My current company pays for all training, any and all time spent out doing work for the company you are pod for.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Rookie50 »

Sendit,

I'm speaking to a broader attitude of entitlement we see in many entry level employees these days, in all industries. You've seen it, we all have.

I asked a receptionist at a place I was dropping off some donated stuff -- charity organization -- simply to hold the door, for me to carry it in --- attitude was like I asked her to wash my car. Eye rolling, whole nine yards. Like, wow. Attitude. Said nothing, but impression was formed.

And -- ( if this is the norm ) --fine -- but you're confused, no offence, why you're still a receptionist?

I don't advocate employer abuse in the slightest, such as certain skydive outfits that turn my stomach, but walking in every door with a my - rights attitude as a newbie, isn't likely to work too well, either.

Professional, polite discussion with the employer, about training Ect, also has its place and might bear more long term fruit than an adversarial attitude.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Meddler »

Normally to sit in a classroom and be taught things that will help you get a job, you need to pay for the privilege.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Meddler »

I can't find the "ducking for cover" emoji....
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by Sendit »

Rookie50 wrote:Sendit,

I'm speaking to a broader attitude of entitlement we see in many entry level employees these days, in all industries. You've seen it, we all have.

I asked a receptionist at a place I was dropping off some donated stuff -- charity organization -- simply to hold the door, for me to carry it in --- attitude was like I asked her to wash my car. Eye rolling, whole nine yards. Like, wow. Attitude. Said nothing, but impression was formed.

And -- ( if this is the norm ) --fine -- but you're confused, no offence, why you're still a receptionist?

I don't advocate employer abuse in the slightest, such as certain skydive outfits that turn my stomach, but walking in every door with a my - rights attitude as a newbie, isn't likely to work too well, either.

Professional, polite discussion with the employer, about training Ect, also has its place and might bear more long term fruit than an adversarial attitude.

Rookie50 I get your post but we are not talking about some sort of technicality here. It's basic labour code requirements that are not being adhered to. i don't think that asking to be paid for training is some sort entitlement. It's what is required of them by law. I mean there is always some degree of give and take in an employee/employer relationship. If my employer shortest me $5 bucks I'm not calling the labour board on them. But depending on the length of said groundschool, we're talking hundreds of dollars that these folks, who are probably earning a low wage to begin with are being shorted. That is not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

As I said previously, the former employer where I worked and did not pay for training until complaints were made to the board. Now all employees at that company get paid for training and they can thank the pilots before them who fought to get that for them.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by tipsails »

Tail-Chaser wrote:99% sure that my present employer pays for ground school. The previous company I worked for, both 703, didn't. Hit and miss I suppose.
I was paid from the first day of my 703 GS. Sure it was only a week and mostly online, and I did a lot of it at home. But I was still paid.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by rxl »

co-joe wrote:OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one.
This statement is so WRONG on so many levels.

You do not choose between being right and being a pilot. You cannot separate the two. If you do, one way or another eventually it will catch up with you.
You especially do not advocate to aspiring "professional" pilots that they must choose between being right and getting the job that they want. That sort of attitude is potentially dangerous and only serves to drag us all down.

What else would you suggest to aspiring pilots? - A little log book fudge is OK? - Maybe you don't need to mention that little "incident" of a few years ago to a potential employer? - Why not undercut your colleagues already in the industry and offer to do the job for less money? - That ground school your buddy was paid to do, offer to do it for free.

Certainly all employers expect hard work and that you will add value to their organization, but do you not think that any employer worth working for also expects honesty, professionalism and solid personal integrity?
Your pilot colleagues in the industry do.

I do not want to share a flight deck with anyone who has made the choice that it's more important to get into that seat than it is to be right.
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Re: Unpaid Company Groundschool

Post by DSoup »

Meddler wrote:Normally to sit in a classroom and be taught things that will help you get a job, you need to pay for the privilege.
^truth

Not a professional pilot,nor in that industry but seems to me like unless you want to start a career of being a union rep or a labour advocate, YOUR interests are best served by doing the course.

You might be screwing other pilots that come after you, and that's the question you need to answer. Is a career limiting move for the sake of pilot rights now worth delaying your career, or are you in this to get a left seat on a 777 at whatever cost?

I would warrant the people telling you to refuse it are in two categories

A) Older pilots who now have the luxury of telling others they should unionize in order to raise the benefits of all pilots
B) The other people on your course.

If you politely ask your boss if there's a chance of being paid for ground school that probably won't hurt you, however I would make it clear that you plan on doing the ground school either way. Not a great negotiation tactic, but also doesn't burn bridges with the people who might be hiring you at the end of the course.

/

Bracing for backlash
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