Point I am trying to make is the pigsty passengers who leave their garbage on floors/seats as I saw on that AC trip. I wasn't commenting or slagging WJ on their methodology for company aircraft grooming between flights. If on-board crew do that task as part of their duties, fine by me and tis no concern of mine. Every time I have flown on WJ(not a lot), the airplanes are well groomed from my brief observations.aerobod wrote:All Hawaii and Gatwick 767 flights have been and will be contract cleaning crews, no employee grooming.Old fella wrote:Aircraft grooming you say. On our last overseas caper few yrs back on AC B777 YYZ- LHR 7 hr trip this flight was full to the brim. We were seated at the very back and in our stroll to get off I noticed what a pigsty of a mess passengers left on the floor, in their seats. I had to pity who ever was gonna clean up that disaster be it crew members, contract groomers or combination of both as it was gonna take a while.
Off topic and perhaps on the wrong site but had to say it.
Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
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Old fella
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
I agree with you on the pigsty that sometimes happens, especially on full flights from destinations such as Orlando. One of the funniest comments I heard recently was from one of our captains who was grooming a row across from where I was grooming when he found a dirty diaper in the seatback pocket, although I can't repeat the language without getting banned, it would have been hilarious to see the parents wearing the diaper.Old fella wrote:Point I am trying to make is the pigsty passengers who leave their garbage on floors/seats as I saw on that AC trip. I wasn't commenting or slagging WJ on their methodology for company aircraft grooming between flights. If on-board crew do that task as part of their duties, fine by me and tis no concern of mine. Every time I have flown on WJ(not a lot), the airplanes are well groomed from my brief observations.aerobod wrote:All Hawaii and Gatwick 767 flights have been and will be contract cleaning crews, no employee grooming.Old fella wrote:Aircraft grooming you say. On our last overseas caper few yrs back on AC B777 YYZ- LHR 7 hr trip this flight was full to the brim. We were seated at the very back and in our stroll to get off I noticed what a pigsty of a mess passengers left on the floor, in their seats. I had to pity who ever was gonna clean up that disaster be it crew members, contract groomers or combination of both as it was gonna take a while.
Off topic and perhaps on the wrong site but had to say it.
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Old fella
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Dirty diaper, jeez what's next condom wrappers on the floor........ those late night return flights from sunny destinations

- complexintentions
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
What a drama queen.Realitychex wrote:
A reality check for those preparing WJ's obituary:
WJ 4Q Operating Margins and BELF's
2015: 10.4% / 70%
2014: 12.6% / 69.6%
2013: 9.7% / 72.5%
2012: 9.3% / 74.3%
2011: 9.3% / 71.2%
AC 4Q Operating Margins and BELF's
2015: Feb 17th
2014: .7% / 80.4%
2013: -.7% / 80.9%
2012: -.8% / 81.8%
2011: .15% /78.7%
WJ can easily absorb a decline in margin and remain profitable, even during the winter months.
It's all because of those low operating costs.
The other guys? Not so much.
We'll see who the camera focuses on next week.
No one is predicting (or hoping for) WestJet's demise. But to try and deny that times are tough and gonna get tougher is just stupid. I appreciate that even DaveP acknowledges that.
There will be plenty of suffering to go around, realitychex. If you take some pleasure that AC may feel it too, whatever. I'm not even in the country, I couldn't care less. But the hopey-changey thing isn't working for Junior and it won't save you either.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
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ravensrule
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
altiplano wrote:Will the 767 crews be grooming after an all night crossing? Or maybe they'll send the RP back to do the clean up? Or if they aren't going to groom how do the rest of the crews feel about that? Will they forego 3% in their profit share?
All grooming on the 767 is done by contracted groomers- Operating crew and other employees are not required to groom.
- mantogasrsrwy
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
[/quote]
But the hopey-changey thing isn't working for Junior and it won't save you either.[/quote]
The hopey-changey thing is working for Junior, it's just not working for the rest of us.
But the hopey-changey thing isn't working for Junior and it won't save you either.[/quote]
The hopey-changey thing is working for Junior, it's just not working for the rest of us.
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Realitychex
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
WJ 4Q Operating Margins and BELF'scomplexintentions wrote:What a drama queen.Realitychex wrote:
A reality check for those preparing WJ's obituary:
WJ 4Q Operating Margins and BELF's
2015: 10.4% / 70%
2014: 12.6% / 69.6%
2013: 9.7% / 72.5%
2012: 9.3% / 74.3%
2011: 9.3% / 71.2%
AC 4Q Operating Margins and BELF's
2015: Feb 17th
2014: .7% / 80.4%
2013: -.7% / 80.9%
2012: -.8% / 81.8%
2011: .15% /78.7%
WJ can easily absorb a decline in margin and remain profitable, even during the winter months.
It's all because of those low operating costs.
The other guys? Not so much.
We'll see who the camera focuses on next week.
No one is predicting (or hoping for) WestJet's demise. But to try and deny that times are tough and gonna get tougher is just stupid. I appreciate that even DaveP acknowledges that.
There will be plenty of suffering to go around, realitychex. If you take some pleasure that AC may feel it too, whatever. I'm not even in the country, I couldn't care less. But the hopey-changey thing isn't working for Junior and it won't save you either.
2015: 10.4% / 70%
2014: 12.6% / 69.6%
2013: 9.7% / 72.5%
2012: 9.3% / 74.3%
2011: 9.3% / 71.2%
AC 4Q Operating Margins and BELF's
2015: 1.5% / 79.8%
2014: .7% / 80.4%
2013: -.7% / 80.9%
2012: -.8% / 81.8%
2011: .15% /78.7%
WJ can easily absorb a decline in margin and remain profitable, even during the winter months.
It's all because of those low operating costs. Did you happen to catch them? 12.97 cents a mile generated over an 877 mile asl?
The other guys? 16.03 cents a mile generated over a 1,495 mile ASL.
So when AC operates a 1,675 mile YYZ-YYC sector, it costs them about 15.8 cents a seat mile. When WJ operates the same sector, it costs them about 11 cents a mile. The curve is not linear. It flattens out as stage length increases and rises sharply as it decreases.
Yikes. There's that 30% unit cost differential again, almost the same as it was back in 1996. The RASM differential, (in AC's favor), does not come close to making up the difference.
And what's the deal about no longer issuing monthly traffic data? That makes AC the only publicly traded airline in North America to not provide the data in at least 22 years, and I suspect considerably longer than that.
I thought I'd seen it all, but apparently not.
Last edited by Realitychex on Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
BNN;
They just keep losing money...The airline reported annual adjusted net income of $1.22-billion or $4.18 a share in the year ended Dec. 31, up from $531-million or $1.81 a year earlier.
Those are the best financial results in the airline’s history, Mr. Rovinescu said.
But investors also appeared to focus on fourth-quarter results, which showed a final loss of $116-million, deeper than the $100-million final loss in the fourth quarter of 2014.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
I would say that if things continue the way they are there is not a business in Canada that is not going to feel the impact.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Pulling in $308 million dollars in net income is losing money? Explain your logic to me, I'd like to understand your math. Westjet had a net income of $367 million, by your math does that mean they made money, or lost money?brooks wrote:BNN;They just keep losing money...The airline reported annual adjusted net income of $1.22-billion or $4.18 a share in the year ended Dec. 31, up from $531-million or $1.81 a year earlier.
Those are the best financial results in the airline’s history, Mr. Rovinescu said.
But investors also appeared to focus on fourth-quarter results, which showed a final loss of $116-million, deeper than the $100-million final loss in the fourth quarter of 2014.
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Realitychex
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
They lost $116m in the fourth quarter.Marinth wrote:Pulling in $308 million dollars in net income is losing money? Explain your logic to me, I'd like to understand your math. Westjet had a net income of $367 million, by your math does that mean they made money, or lost money?brooks wrote:BNN;They just keep losing money...The airline reported annual adjusted net income of $1.22-billion or $4.18 a share in the year ended Dec. 31, up from $531-million or $1.81 a year earlier.
Those are the best financial results in the airline’s history, Mr. Rovinescu said.
But investors also appeared to focus on fourth-quarter results, which showed a final loss of $116-million, deeper than the $100-million final loss in the fourth quarter of 2014.
No one cares what the New England Patriots did in the playoffs during 2015. It's what they did in the playoffs in 2016 that count.
Their margin was, after their annual 3Q hiatus, at the bottom of the industry pile. Their actions, (ie cancelling monthly traffic statistics for basically the first time ever, as well as advising their intention to release the next two sets of quarterly numbers on a Friday), do not exactly instill much confidence in prospective fiscal results over the next couple of quarters.
3Q will look after itself, it always does. Then 4Q rolls around again.
With their high costs and in this decaying economic environment, is it really the best time to be trying to "expand into profitability"?
I'd be battening down the hatches, shedding every scrap of extraneous costs, ditching doggy routes and deferring aircraft orders. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Unit costs are king.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Wow! Thanks realitychex! I had no idea AC was doing so poorly. Guess I should dust off the ol resume! Thanks for the heads up
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Air Canada has nearly $1 billion worth of debt coming due over the next two years and dealing with that should be a higher priority than adding planes to its current fleet.
Air Canada has an S&P credit rating of B+, while WestJet has a rating of BBB-.
The higher debt level a company has, the more likely it is to default. Air Canada’s debt-to-cap ratio is 114% while WestJet’s is 34%.
Keep drinking the red Kool Aid AC boys.
Air Canada has an S&P credit rating of B+, while WestJet has a rating of BBB-.
The higher debt level a company has, the more likely it is to default. Air Canada’s debt-to-cap ratio is 114% while WestJet’s is 34%.
Keep drinking the red Kool Aid AC boys.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
No one cares what the New England Patriots did in the playoffs during 2015. It's what they did in the playoffs in 2016 that count.
1.22 Billion in 2015. Sounds like a Super Bowl win to me.
I thought this thread was about Westjets over exposure to the Alberta market, yet somehow the Air Canada derangement syndrome instilled into your brains spun this into being about another airline.
This doesn't sound like a CEO who is worried about what the market thinks about his companies performance.
“To be very blunt, we’re not running this company for the benefit of short-term investors from a day-to-day basis or from a month-to-month basis,” Mr. Rovinescu said.
“We’ll see what the stock price does. If short-term investors don’t like this, I can encourage them to leave. We’re running this company for the benefit of our long-term stakeholders.”
“That means we’re going to be providing information that we consider relevant to how we manage the company, not in terms of what somebody would like to see on a day-to-day basis or a month-to-month basis,” Mr. Rovinescu said.
“If we attract greater long-term investors, that should result in less [share price] volatility, not more volatility, and we’ll have the analysts starting to think about this in the way many pension funds [do].”
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Yes. Realitychex. Brooks. Obviously consumed with thoughts about AC. Comparing WJ with AC is like comparing Easyjet to BA. Much different airlines doing much different things. (So far). Difference between myself and these beauties is that I have no desire to see WJ fail. I only wish success to the airline and my friends flying there.
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Realitychex
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
No one wants to see anyone fail.atphat wrote:Yes. Realitychex. Brooks. Obviously consumed with thoughts about AC. Comparing WJ with AC is like comparing Easyjet to BA. Much different airlines doing much different things. (So far). Difference between myself and these beauties is that I have no desire to see WJ fail. I only wish success to the airline and my friends flying there.
That's why it's important to keep an eye on the goings on in the business and not rely upon spoon fed spin from various vested interests.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Didn't they just make a billion?brooks wrote:Air Canada has nearly $1 billion worth of debt coming due over the next two years and dealing with that should be a higher priority than adding planes to its current fleet..
AC is not adding that many aircraft. They are going through fleet renewal and fleet right sizing. Both of these will reduce CASM over the medium term. Narrow bodies are being reduced by about 25. Widebodies increased by 40. This process is just in its infancy. There will be a lot more widebody transcon. If the economy tanks the older fleets, 767,330 will get parked.
What AC is really doing is adding seats. Lots of them through upgauging and squishing them into cattle class. This is reducing both RASM and CASM. So long as CASM drops faster than RASM all is good. This concept is what is driving the rift between short term investors and AC's business strategy. They can't get their head wrapped around dropping yields.
Realitychex. I very much doubt AC's CASM is any higher than WJ between YVR and YYZ. That route is almost entirely widebody now. Are you trying to tell us that AC's CASM on a HD 777 with 450 seats is higher than a WJ 737? Or is that why you chose YYC-YYZ?
You also know full well that CASM is consolidated with the regionals. You also know one of those regionals, that once represented almost all of AC's regional lift, had a CASM of 27cents. That number will drop over the next few years.
Not sure where this sensitivity is coming from. AC has a long way to go to get to the same level of profitability as WJ. They are finally making some progress.
Why is that a threat? It actually comes across as a lack of confidence. Or somehow WJ's identity is threatened by a competitor that might actually compete. Let's face it WJ hasn't ever really had a strong competitor.
WJ is an outstanding company. If AC even gets part way to WJ's margins I will be happy.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
The Price to earnings ratio (P/E) at Air Canada is 38. WestJet is 5. Do I think this is turbulent times for WestJet? Of course. Airlines are a never ending story. But I have said before that Air Canada is a big fish in a relatively small population where WestJet can swim circles around and snack on its lunch. Rouge was the answer to compete with WJ on some routes and it has turned into nothing but a blip. WJ will probably never be the size of Air Canada but they will always be a thorn in its ass. The day that Air Canada can actually post a profit I will consider them a threat to WestJet.
With more 767s on the way and a much lower cost structure than "other" airlines growth at WJ will be the norm for quite some time to come.
With more 767s on the way and a much lower cost structure than "other" airlines growth at WJ will be the norm for quite some time to come.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
I simply don't know how to respond.brooks wrote: The day that Air Canada can actually post a profit I will consider them a threat to WestJet.
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Realitychex
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
TheStig wrote:
No one cares what the New England Patriots did in the playoffs during 2015. It's what they did in the playoffs in 2016 that count.
1.22 Billion in 2015. Sounds like a Super Bowl win to me.
I thought this thread was about Westjets over exposure to the Alberta market, yet somehow the Air Canada derangement syndrome instilled into your brains spun this into being about another airline.
This doesn't sound like a CEO who is worried about what the market thinks about his companies performance.
“To be very blunt, we’re not running this company for the benefit of short-term investors from a day-to-day basis or from a month-to-month basis,” Mr. Rovinescu said.
“We’ll see what the stock price does. If short-term investors don’t like this, I can encourage them to leave. We’re running this company for the benefit of our long-term stakeholders.”
“That means we’re going to be providing information that we consider relevant to how we manage the company, not in terms of what somebody would like to see on a day-to-day basis or a month-to-month basis,” Mr. Rovinescu said.
“If we attract greater long-term investors, that should result in less [share price] volatility, not more volatility, and we’ll have the analysts starting to think about this in the way many pension funds [do].”
You are looking at the number you are being steered to, not the number that matter.
$1.22b is an "adjusted" number. Unless every one in the industry "adjusts" their numbers with identical methodology, it's meaningless.
EBITDAR this and EBITDAR that. They used the term 21 times in their earnings release. Hawaiian used it 5x. No one else in North America used the term once in their earnings release. That's how common a metric it is.
Air Canada's net profit, after paying no income taxes for the second year in a row, was $308m on revenues of $13.89B, an improvement of $203m after an annual fuel saving of $924m. That's a 2.2% profit margin after tax, (and remember, AC didn't pay any income taxes in 2015, or 2014, for that matter...).
AC lost $116m in the most recent quarter, compared to a $100m loss in 4Q 2014 last year, with YoY quarterly fuel expense dropping from 80 cents to about 59 cents a liter.
WJ made $367.5 m in 2015 on revenues of $4.03b, after paying almost $153m in income taxes, a 9.1% after tax margin. That's an improvement of $83.5m after an annual fuel saving of $276m.
WJ made $63.4m after tax in the most recent quarter, compared to $90.7m last year, with YoY quarterly fuel expense dropping from 81 cents to 57 cents a liter.
A profit is a profit is a profit.
No amount of spin turns a net loss into a profit.
And with all the "transformation", why is their system casm so much higher than WJ's? Every time this is pointed out, the apologists respond that, at every level AC competes with WJ, be it 39 miles across the Straits of Georgia or 4,700 miles from YVR to the UK, their unit costs are almost identical.
But when the costs are rolled up, there's a 20% straight line differential in fully allocated costs. Plot those costs on a standard stage length adjusted cost curve and the actual differential starts to get closer to 30%.
So you tell me. Where do the costs go wonky?
It's got to be somewhere. It's not short haul, its not medium haul. It's not on 5,000 mile sectors. It's not Rouge. It's not Chorus. It's not Skyservice.
Something is driving those unit costs up to 16 cents a mile over a 1,495 mile average sector when WJ's are 13 cents on an 877 mile average sector. Why is WJ's BELF a full 10% points lower than AC's, even with RASM that is 13% points lower? If it it's not RASM, it has to be CASM.
So what is it?
Last edited by Realitychex on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
Realitychex wrote: You are looking at the number you are being steered to, not the number that matters.
$1.22b is an "adjusted" number. Unless every one in the industry "adjusts" their numbers with identical methodology, it's meaningless.
EBITDAR this and EBITDAR that. They used the term 21 times in their earnings release. Hawaiian used it 5x. No one else in North America used the term once in their earnings release. That's how common a metric it is.
Air Canada's net profit, after paying no income taxes for the second year in a row, was $308m on revenues of $13.89B, an improvement of $203m after an annual fuel saving of $924m. That's a 2.2% profit margin after tax, (and remember, AC didn't pay any income taxes in 2015, and 2014, for that matter...).
AC lost $116m in the most recent quarter, compared to a $100m loss in 4Q 2014 last year, with YoY quarterly fuel expense dropping from 80 cents to about 59 cents a liter.
............
Thanks for this. I love how you sift thru the BS.
Any idea what WestJets "adjusted" net or EBITDAR would look like if they reported it in that manner?
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sportingrifle
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Re: Turbulent times for WJ ahead?
So out of interest, I dig out our new contract while watching timezones slide by, and run the just announced 2015 financial results in to the profit sharing formula. Unless I really blew the math, my profit sharing cheque will be about $16K, just a hair under a months salary. So Brooks et all, for some reason my money losing airline is going to pay me (and 3300 other pilots) a big profit sharing check.



