Bonds at companies also doing lay offs.

[V2plus10]

Just curious how some of the boys in western Canada are dealing with the uncertainty in the charter/corporate flying out there. What's the feeling for guys working at the Air Partners, Sunwests, Cariboos that are currently laying off employees on different A/C types but are still under bonds themselves but are seeking more stable employment. Kind of shitty to sit there and see the writing on the wall in terms of a lay off being imminent, yet you're forced to wait it out especially if you have a family to support(EI not being sufficient). I'm all for living up to the terms of a bond due to the large amount of money invested in you, but it would be hard to get notice you only have 2 weeks more pay coming in and most hiring processes take much longer.

[Heisenberg666]

Every bond I've seen releases the pilot in the event of a layoff.

[flyinhigh]

Chances are the folks that are still at those companies listed are not bonded.

Junior guys are the ones bonded, which means that they will be the first ones layed off.

[canoe]

Every bond I've seen releases the pilot in the event of a layoff.

You haven't seen wasaya's bond then. Temporary layoff and you find employment elsewhere you pay out the bond.
IMHO wether you are temporarily laid off or full time layoff if a company can't suck it up and pay you for 3 months to keep a qualified hand on staff, and instead decides to temporarily lay you off, you should be free to look for employment wherever you please. Alas people sign these with the input of ALPA

[HORUNNER]

If you are laid off and there is a call back date or callback planned in writting on your layoff paper work you are obligated to return to your employer, that's a matter of labour law.
Now your bond date still doesn't change and the company is still very much obligated to be paying you your monthly bond payout or deducting the months from your end of bond date.
You signed a contract saying you would give them till ex date not soo many months...

[plhought]

Temp layoff - I've heard bond "frozen" for maximum six months (max allowed Temp Layoff)...regardless if you f-off and go somewhere else. If you are recalled the ya gotta pay out if you don't return (B***skit in my opinion). Nothing prevents the company from hiring you back knowing full well you're not going to leave your current employer for someone who just laid ya off 6 months ago...and they can scuzz ya for money...flippin' greasy.

After 6 months. Full layoff = released from bond. No ifs-aboot-it. Don't let the skuzz convince ya otherwise.

[Heisenberg666]

Every bond I've seen releases the pilot in the event of a layoff.

You haven't seen wasaya's bond then. Temporary layoff and you find employment elsewhere you pay out the bond.
IMHO wether you are temporarily laid off or full time layoff if a company can't suck it up and pay you for 3 months to keep a qualified hand on staff, and instead decides to temporarily lay you off, you should be free to look for employment wherever you please. Alas people sign these with the input of ALPA

That's outrageous! I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[delta1]

At CMA you have to pay your bond in event of a lay off.

[TeePeeCreeper]

At CMA you have to pay your bond in event of a lay off.

If that is the case, "epic bullshit"!!!
The cost of retaining a contractual or labour lawyer prior to entering into such a contract negates the potential pitfalls!

For Pete's sake, guys and gals protect yourself before commiting to such a contract. Dare I say a marriage and subsequent divorce might just cost less than a layoff/bond payout!

[Marinth]

Chances are the folks that are still at those companies listed are not bonded.

Junior guys are the ones bonded, which means that they will be the first ones layed off.

Not necessarily. It didn't work like that at subway anyway, they sent a number of long term employees packing.

[mbav8r]

Chances are the folks that are still at those companies listed are not bonded.

Junior guys are the ones bonded, which means that they will be the first ones layed off.

Not necessarily. It didn't work like that at subway anyway, they sent a number of long term employees packing.

There's a bond now to be a sandwich artist?

[phillyfan]

Who signs these crazy things? Who signs a document that says that they can't work elsewhere if they are laid off? I feel like some of you need to read "The Art of the Deal"?

[SuperchargedRS]

Companies with bonds --> giant "STAY AWAY" sign.

Companies with bonds and layoffs --> giant "STAY AWAY" sign with flashing neon lights


The crap some folks in our industry will put up with, try that with a RN nurse, they'll laugh and walk away, same with many professions, yet we have so much training and $$ wrapped up in getting our CPL and then competitive to where we are, yet somehow we get these dodo birds who jump at these "opportunities", this is why we can't have nice things.


I just don't understand how someone can pilot a aircraft across the country in zero vis, handle complex systems and even more complex rules, understand not only how to make a plane fly, but how it is able to fly, yet be lacking such a large amount of intelligence and common sense that they would take these BS jobs. One would think people this dumb would have died off in child hood, running in front of cars or eating knives or something, guess you can blame this on your overly safe and "you can be anything you want to be" society. Crazy

[PositiveRate27]

Companies with bonds --> giant "STAY AWAY" sign.

Companies with bonds and layoffs --> giant "STAY AWAY" sign with flashing neon lights


The crap some folks in our industry will put up with, try that with a RN nurse, they'll laugh and walk away, same with many professions, yet we have so much training and $$ wrapped up in getting our CPL and then competitive to where we are, yet somehow we get these dodo birds who jump at these "opportunities", this is why we can't have nice things.


I just don't understand how someone can pilot a aircraft across the country in zero vis, handle complex systems and even more complex rules, understand not only how to make a plane fly, but how it is able to fly, yet be lacking such a large amount of intelligence and common sense that they would take these BS jobs. One would think people this dumb would have died off in child hood, running in front of cars or eating knives or something, guess you can blame this on your overly safe and "you can be anything you want to be" society. Crazy

You're only about the one-billionth person to say that on this forum... Do you have any solution to these problems other that calling us all stupid?

[SuperchargedRS]

You're only about the one-billionth person to say that on this forum... Do you have any solution to these problems other that calling us all stupid?

Yeah, DONT BE STUPID.

Just say no to crap jobs and bonds, lots of folks, myself included, managed to get from 0-thousands of hours without ever crapping our own bed in the industry.

[awitzke]

I've been lucky as well to find a great job out of school without a bond. Good place to work too... They exist, although not many.

[Shady McSly]

I've signed 5 different bonds in my career so far. And my first job was on the ramp.

I know, I know...I'm ruining EVERYTHING!!

[SuperchargedRS]

I've been lucky as well to find a great job out of school without a bond. Good place to work too... They exist, although not many.

Not sure about luck, think it's more preserverence and not being afraid to move to where the proper jobs are, some of us, I guess, lucked out in the sense that they already happened to be where the good jobs were at, other such as myself did a bit of traveling, thus is being a pilot.

I've signed 5 different bonds in my career so far. And my first job was on the ramp.

I know, I know...I'm ruining EVERYTHING!!

In a sense you are, if people like you didn't exist training bonds wouldn't exist.

When your option is to not have a training bond, or simply not have any pilots, I think the choice is clear, treat professional pilots with respect or close your doors.

[PositiveRate27]

You're only about the one-billionth person to say that on this forum... Do you have any solution to these problems other that calling us all stupid?

Yeah, DONT BE STUPID.

Just say no to crap jobs and bonds, lots of folks, myself included, managed to get from 0-thousands of hours without ever crapping our own bed in the industry.

Its much more complex than that. Your life may have been a simple path, but not everyone has that luxury. I'm still waiting for a legitimate solution to the problem from you. The Trump model of politics doesn't actually fix anything.

[godsrcrazy]

I've signed 5 different bonds in my career so far. And my first job was on the ramp.

I know, I know...I'm ruining EVERYTHING!!

In a sense you are, if people like you didn't exist training bonds wouldn't exist.

When your option is to not have a training bond, or simply not have any pilots, I think the choice is clear, treat professional pilots with respect or close your doors.[/quote]


This has nothing to do with people like Shady. Bonds wouldn't exist if the scum balls out there that promise their soul for the endorsement. If they kept their word there wouldn't be bonds. It amazes me how someone can be so happy with a company to take an upgrade then jump ship for a few pennies an hour more and find every excuse under the sun as to why they did what they did. If people kept their word training bonds wouldn't exist.

[FighterPilot]

I think you missed the sarcasm

[goingnowherefast]

If your options are run out of EI and live on the street, or sign a bond. What would you do? I've always picked the job without a bond vs the job with a bond. Thus, so far, I've never signed a bond

I've been lucky as well to find a great job out of school without a bond. Good place to work too... They exist, although not many.

Not sure about luck, think it's more preserverence and not being afraid to move to where the proper jobs are, some of us, I guess, lucked out in the sense that they already happened to be where the good jobs were at, other such as myself did a bit of traveling, thus is being a pilot.

It's more about the companies that don't have bonds hiring at the same time as you are looking for work. People looking for a flying job in 2002 or 2009 had a much harder time than people looking for work in 2007 or 2015. Nobody wants a shitty job, sometimes it's just the only option besides being homeless.

[SuperchargedRS]

This has nothing to do with people like Shady. Bonds wouldn't exist if the scum balls out there that promise their soul for the endorsement. If they kept their word there wouldn't be bonds. It amazes me how someone can be so happy with a company to take an upgrade then jump ship for a few pennies an hour more and find every excuse under the sun as to why they did what they did. If people kept their word training bonds wouldn't exist.

Kept their word


You got to ask yourself why people need to be handcuffed to you to keep them around.

Folks don't run away from good jobs.

Its much more complex than that. Your life may have been a simple path, but not everyone has that luxury. I'm still waiting for a legitimate solution to the problem from you. The Trump model of politics doesn't actually fix anything.

Do dude, it's not. No one signs a bond, no one who needs to hire pilots could ask for one and expect to have any pilots.

My path was far from simple, I just never even bothered with a application to scum bag operators who wanted my money, funny logic I have, I don't PAY to get a job, I'm odd like that.

If by the "Trump model" you mean a free market with people who take responsibility, that's the model which has endured since the dawn of civilization....and it's the same model which is kicking our butts now, I cant fault companies who ask for training bonds, I mean as long as you have idiot pilots out there who will give you basically free loans, why the heck not!

Frankly I never took the stance that I "needed that job" and strangely I have never had a issue finding work and never paid a employer to work for them.

[SuperchargedRS]

If your options are run out of EI and live on the street, or sign a bond. What would you do? I've always picked the job without a bond vs the job with a bond. Thus, so far, I've never signed a bond

I've been lucky as well to find a great job out of school without a bond. Good place to work too... They exist, although not many.

Not sure about luck, think it's more preserverence and not being afraid to move to where the proper jobs are, some of us, I guess, lucked out in the sense that they already happened to be where the good jobs were at, other such as myself did a bit of traveling, thus is being a pilot.

It's more about the companies that don't have bonds hiring at the same time as you are looking for work. People looking for a flying job in 2002 or 2009 had a much harder time than people looking for work in 2007 or 2015. Nobody wants a shitty job, sometimes it's just the only option besides being homeless.

If you're living paycheck to paycheck like that, don't have any fall backs and don't have a temp plan B, you're not someone who is going to do well no matter what.

I can find a chit ton of jobs on Craig's list, I don't understand how someone could collect unemployment or live off the tax payers back, this smells like the same personality flaw which gets folks to sign training bonds.

Who cares, if you're really bad off and couldn't read the writing on the wall, go bartend or sling real estate or insurance or cars for a few months to save up money while you're looking for a good flying job, move to where the jobs and QOL is, this is stuff you should know by the time you hit the workforce as a teenager.

[goingnowherefast]

So a guy fresh out of flight school, 40 grand in debt is supposed to live on their non-existent savings while traveling?

I'm not saying it's right, just looking at it from a different point of view. Personally, I'd love to see a law making bonds illegal. Scum operators deserve to be retraining every 4 months. Maybe they'd improve WAWCON to increase retention and reduce training costs.