Air Canada announces plans to buy 75 Cseries

[timel]

http://business.financialpost.com/news/ ... -8-billion


Looks like AC is helping Bombardier survive.
Bombarcier also said they would lay off 7000 workers in the two next years, from what I read on social media, it is jobs that are being relocated in countries where labor is cheaper.

[URC]

Who's going to fly them ? Is that covered under ACPA's scope clause ?

[dashx]

jobs that are being relocated

Are you familiar with Bombardier facilities in Mexico and Japan? Lets not forget Ireland....Talks of China and Russia have been ongoing for quite sometime.....

[CID]

It's a globally distributed product and in order to compete, Bombardier needs to think globally just like every other large corporation with a globally distributed product. The Global Express has wings made in Japan, fuselage made in Ireland (by their Shorts Brothers division) engines made in Germany, landing gear made by a British company, avionics largely made in the US, an electrical generating and distribution system made in Britain, a throttle quadrant made in France etc etc etc...not to mention final assembly, cockpit, composite fairings, entry door and various other items made/performed in Canada as well as most of the interior completions.

If you isolate yourself in the aircraft manufacturing game, you won't survive. Bombardier's woes are more from biting off more than it could chew while not foreseeing the global economy tank. It's certainly not because they haven't effectively diversified their manufacturing processes effectively.

[Nark]

Who's going to fly them ? Is that covered under ACPA's scope clause ?

I don't know what ACPA's scope clause is, but if they can fly 190's why couldn't they fly Cseries?

[GyvAir]

an electrical generating and distribution system made in Britain

Lucas?

[NotDirty!]

an electrical generating and distribution system made in Britain

Lucas?

Lucas is an acronym for Loose Unsoldered Connections and Splices

Think they'll need some of this?

[rxl]

Air Canada Express<76 seat jets/80 seat props<Air Canada

[N181CS]

I enjoyed watching the transport minister hum about giving funding, getting more sales plus his and other peoples comments about lay offs, this being the first NA purchase all the while not willing to work with the island and porter to promote jobs and get more sales for Bombardier

[timel]

jobs that are being relocated

Are you familiar with Bombardier facilities in Mexico and Japan? Lets not forget Ireland....Talks of China and Russia have been ongoing for quite sometime.....

I can't deny the whole global market reality, they are actually cutting 1000 jobs in Ireland.

I find it weird that 1B$ of QC's public money was given for the Cserie project, there are no guarantees for money back from Bombardier's two other companies that are doing very well, and now all of this slashing. I really hope this money will be invested for jobs in Canada.

I wish well to Bombardier, it is allowing some Canadians at the top to have good jobs, but I won't pretend they cares about employees.

[teacher]

jobs that are being relocated

Are you familiar with Bombardier facilities in Mexico and Japan? Lets not forget Ireland....Talks of China and Russia have been ongoing for quite sometime.....

I can't deny the whole global market reality, they are actually cutting 1000 jobs in Ireland.

I find it weird that 1B$ of QC's public money was given for the Cserie project, there are no guarantees for money back from Bombardier's two other companies that are doing very well, and now all of this slashing. I really hope this money will be invested for jobs in Canada.

I wish well to Bombardier, it is allowing some Canadians at the top to have good jobs, but I won't pretend they cares about employees.

They didn't just give the money away:

In exchange for its investment, the provincial government will receive a 49.5 per cent stake in a new limited partnership that will take control of the assets, liabilities and obligations of the CSeries program just as the smaller CS100 version of the jetliner nears certification.

http://business.financialpost.com/inves ... ed-cseries

[LittleNelly]

They didn't just give the money away:

In exchange for its investment, the provincial government will receive a 49.5 per cent stake in a new limited partnership that will take control of the assets, liabilities and obligations of the CSeries program just as the smaller CS100 version of the jetliner nears certification.

http://business.financialpost.com/inves ... ed-cseries

The Quebec government definitely got something out of their investment but this always makes me wonder what the Federal government would receive for an equivalent $1 billion investment. If they receive the same deal of 49.5% that would leave bombardier a 1% stake in the c series.

[mbav8r]

I'm sure if the Feds get involved, it will be in the form of a loan.

[C208]

"According to the Wall Street Journal report, Ray Conner, Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO, said recently in an internal presentation that the first United order was specifically designed to keep Bombardier from gaining a foothold in the market, as a United order would be seen by other airlines as validation of the C Series"

This is from a stock form bullboard that I sniff around on. if this is true it's dirty pool but it does validate the quality of the C-Series

[timel]

True, the 49.5% stake that Quebec bought are still very risky. They can only sell them back in 5 years.
If the CSeries fail, the money will be gone.

If the Federal government accepts to give 1B$, I am wondering if they will secure it a little more by taking guarantees in Bombardier business jets or trains.

It is not a surprise bombardier needs public funds, they are competing again Airbus and Boeing.

[Confliction]

Feds give Quebec/Bombardier money and in turn, Quebec should remove barriers of Energy East pipeline.

[Gino Under]

Wow!
Most of these posts sound more like a bunch of sports fans cheering for their favorite team and booing the opposition.
"Go Boeing go. Go Boeing go. Go Boeing go."

So far, the Quebec Pension Fund has bought into BBDs C series as a risk sharing partner, fully expecting a financial return like any other investment partner. BBD have asked the Federal Government for the same kind of investment to share the risk and reward like the Qc Pension Fund. Yet, most sports fans on this thread keep referring to the government purchase as nothing more than a 'handout' or 'corporate welfare'.

It's neither folks.

Aerospace is a very important sector for Canada just as farming, forestry, fisheries or the petroleum industry is. (Did I forget to mention the auto industry?)
Quebec bashing is nothing more than sport for english Canada when it comes to knocking Bombardier and all things Quebec. Nothing new.

Bombardier is now a very famous Canadian Company originating in small town Quebec. It bought an aircraft manufacturer, Canadair. It is now the 3rd largest manufacturer of aircraft on the planet and international in stature. Yet, most still seem to think of it is a Quebec company. They partner with hundreds of suppliers globally and if they go down, the affect will go well beyond Quebec borders. And if it goes down, it won't be a Quebec disaster, it will be a Canadian disaster, like that never-ending-story The AVRO Arrow, and the associated stories that suggest 'our' engineers somehow put an American on the moon. sigh

Bombardier is no more a Quebec company than Airbus is a French company.
The Europeans poured billions into Airbus to make it the success it is today. Why shouldn't Canadians support Bombardier and make it a similar success?
Lack of confidence?
Inferiority complex?
Too expensive an investment?
Fear of failure?
Maybe all four judging by most of these posts.

The C series is a threat to both Boeing and Airbus and they both know that. That's why they're both trying to eliminate a serious competitor. As for me, I'm cheering for the Canadian.


Gino Under

[Boreas]

Bombardier is no more a Quebec company than Airbus is a French company.
The Europeans poured billions into Airbus to make it the success it is today. Why shouldn't Canadians support Bombardier and make it a similar success?
Lack of confidence?
Inferiority complex?
Too expensive an investment?
Fear of failure?
Maybe all four judging by most of these posts.

The C series is a threat to both Boeing and Airbus and they both know that. That's why they're both trying to eliminate a serious competitor. As for me, I'm cheering for the Canadian.


Gino Under

Well said Gino!

[Rowdy]

Couldn't agree more Gino!

I hope to see the C series take a giant bite out of EMB, Boeing and Airbus sales. Unfortunately many of our southern friends politicians will be supporting Boeing...

Also, open up that damned island already

[timel]

Personally, I am all for Bombardier, what they have done for Canadian aviation is amazing, but I am still critical of how public money is risked into this project because there are not many garantees for money back it fails. At the same time, I understand, at the point where we are now, it would be insane to let it go.

I think the graphic in this article is interesting:
http://www.businessinsider.com/bombardi ... us-2013-10
The range and pax capacity is smaller and the fuel price isn't making it attractive right now. Is it really a better product than Airbus or Boeing? I am asking the question genuinely.

Also, airlines are worried about parts supply if the project stops. I guess if Air Canada moves forward and buy 75 of them, it will reassure the market and help the sales.


Anyone heard about the COMAC?
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/09/is-china ... irbus.html

[Gino Under]

timel
The comparison data in that link with regard to C series data is inaccurate. The range of the CS100 is 3100 nm, not 1500 nm. I recommend you research the 700 and 320. Their ranges aren't exact either.

It never ceases to amaze me.
Canadians on this forum, most believed to be active participants in Canadian aviation, would rather see a foreign company succeed with their products than a Canadian company succeed with theirs. Unbelievable! But typical of the Canadian inferiority complex.

Yes. There are many legitimate and logical reasons for Bombardier's present dilemma. I understand that.
And yes, they might not survive. Many have clearly and eloquently stated why they think it might not survive and they're probably right. Yet, few seem to be bothered by the fact that this historic Canadian manufacturer even had to seek foreign investment in the first place to help it survive. That cry for help should have been answered by Canadian investors instead of the likes of Airbus or Embraer. Few among us understand the very expensive business of developing an all new clean-sheet aircraft. Thank god the Quebec Pension Fund stepped forward. It's time the Government of Canada did likewise.

Canada will contribute $2.65 billion over the next five years to help developing countries tackle climate change. Not a whimper or a whisper from Canadians. Yet, many Canadians have issues with a $1 billion investment in Bombardier's survival and fail to see how that investment would have a significantly positive impact on the Canadian Aerospace industry.
I can just imagine where that free money for developing countries will end up and we'll be getting zero ROI for being nothing more than the nice guy. Wow. What a country.

Political pressure or not (I'm sure there wasn't or very little, but) Air Canada should have bought the C series just as Lufthansa and Air France bought the A300 in the early days of Airbus. I have no doubt that Air Canada wouldn't have bought C series if they didn't see a fit or commercial viability for it in their fleet.
To blindly subscribe to the notion there is no market for the C series is not only simplistic but without logic. To even think there is no market for the C series is nothing more than accepting the 'spin' from Boeing and Airbus and their marketing departments. How can anyone in the airline business actually think there is any accuracy in that suggestion?
The C series IS a game changer and I'm willing to say there isn't a pilot out there that won't like it.

Those who know the newer corporate aeroplanes will understand when I say, today's airliners, including the Max and the NEO, fall short of the capability of aircraft like the Global Express Vision or Challenger 650. The C series kicks it up a notch and that's part of why A&B are late to respond. The best they could do in response to the C series was to re-engine and re-design winglets.
I really don't think it will be enough.
Discounting won't be enough as it will only serve to anger today's customers, later.

Gino

[Confliction]

Comparing the Challenger 650 to Max and Neo makes no sense, but you're right the Global's are pretty sweet.

Anyway, do taxpayers really want to get into a un-ending government sponsored airliner-making subsidy battle with other countries that probably have a lot more money than us? I don't and especially with a company based in Quebec and one that has shown poor leadership.

[Braun]

Comparing the Challenger 650 to Max and Neo makes no sense, but you're right the Global's are pretty sweet.

Anyway, do taxpayers really want to get into a un-ending government sponsored airliner-making subsidy battle with other countries that probably have a lot more money than us? I don't and especially with a company based in Quebec and one that has shown poor leadership.

What does the fact that the company is based in Quebec change? We are all Canadian no? If government spends billions on olympics i am very well comfortable with them investing in our aerospace industry. Agree or not that is fine but the fact that people turn this into Quebec bashing is well beyond me.

[Gino Under]

To be more specific, my comparison was in reference to the Proline 21 avionics suite. Sorry, I should have made that clearer. I've used both the 650 and Vision AFCS. I've also used the NG AFCS. if the Max shows up with the same 6 pack and avionics suite as the NG, proline wins in a heartbeat. Which isn't on the NG and is on the C series with future SVS capability.
I'm only speaking as an end user which, of course, is only my opinion and my preference. I get that.

If the public purse doesn't fund aerospace, including companies like Bombardier as well as others, like the NRC, the space program, we'll never see the benefits of our science and technology efforts (the Space Arm for example) our engineers and scientists will have to leave the country. Computer scientists and computer programmers, along with many other specialized talents. Where do they go if we don't have our own science and technology institutions to provide opportunities? Why shouldn't we have these and others like them? What financial return does the CSA give the Canadian taxpayer and where should any financial support for them end? How is supporting Bombardier any different?
Would making Bombardier a government agency, similar to the NRC (wind tunnel testing) or the Space Agency make us feel better about what we fund? Or, would investing in Bombardier be a better option where we'd actually stand a chance of seeing a return?
And why should the fact it's in Quebec be a concern? DeHavilland is in Toronto. Financial institutions are based in Toronto, Bombardier are also in Thunder Bay. Air Canada's HQ is in Quebec. CN's.
The argument gets a bit silly, really.

Poor leadership? I think you simply take a look around at other institutions (start with the PM) to find other examples of poor leadership. That's definitely not Bombardier's problem today.

In 1957, as an elementary student in Toronto attending grade 2, we were given lapel pins of the Avro Arrow. We wore them with pride as the Arrow could be seen on occasion flying overhead. What a sight.
As you know, the conservative government of the day under John Diefenbaker suddenly and unceremoniously cancelled the government funded program. We all know the rest of that story.

My hope is, the 2016 Liberal government under Justin Trudeau doesn't make the same mistake. But, unfortunately, as we all know, history has a tendency to repeat itself.

Gino

[rxl]

Gino Under for Prime Minister!

To encourage economic diversification via investment in a progressive company like Bombardier with a great product ready for market is exactly what responsible government should be doing.
In light of $32 crude oil and after a long period of single-minded focus on the energy sector of the economy, this is long over due in Canada.

We are much more than "hewers of wood and drawers of water". Innovative Canadian companies like Bombardier are living proof of that.