Class 4 instructors

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digits_
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Re: Class 4 instructors

Post by digits_ »

redlaser wrote:digits_ the form you referred to is the one relating to the upgrade from a Class 4 to a Class 3, it is not the form which has to be filled every day by the Class 4 instructor and signed by the CFI, prior to the Instructor giving flight lessons to his or her student, Direct Supervision by the CFI must be documented, for every flight undertaken by the Class4 instructor, If in doubt check with TC inspector of your flight School.
Okay, so:

1) Can you please link to the form you are referring to ? There is none.
2) We do not use such a form at our flight school. The school got audited last year. There was no issue whatsoever. Both me (class 4 at the time) and our CFI (class 2 and my supervising instructor) got interviewed. Again, no issue whatsoever. There is no legal requirement for such a form, which is probably why it doesnt exist.

It's very easy to prove me wrong: link to the form you are talking about.
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photofly
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Re: Class 4 instructors

Post by photofly »

I just want to be a CFI's delicate.
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Class 4 instructors

Post by Shiny Side Up »

digits_ wrote:
It doesn't. Section 3 and section 2 are completely separate. They are separate requirements that need to be fulfilled. The amount of progress checks in (2) can be different than the ones in (3).
Ok, lets carefully review then.
The holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating shall be under the supervision of the holder of a Class 1 or 2 Flight Instructor Rating, in the applicable category,
So far so good. We're all on the same page that class 4s must be supervised. Yes? Good.

Now the tricky part that some seem to not understand:
and shall submit for review to the supervising instructor the following:

(1) the training program for each student undergoing training by the holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating;


Easy enough, typically this will be covered by the FTU's syllabus the program that each of the class 4's will be following. One should note that no specific paper is required there, though one could argue that point. But that's not what's being debated here.
(2) flight progress checks for each student at intervals to be specified by the supervising flight instructor, but at least once before the first solo flight and once before the flight test for issue of the pilot licence;

(3) a record of results on the form “Instructor’s Training Record While Under Direct Supervision”; and
So you're right in that the progress checks can be more than the minimum as specified in (2) and if they are more then (3) specifies that the results of said checks must be recorded. The FIG provides a form on the last page that assumes a minimum record is being kept. Technically if the supervising instructor required more checks for a class 4 (most common would be instructors working in an integrated course) then they must make additions or changes to that form to reflect the "flight progress checks" as specified in (2). Lastly in addition to (2) and (3),
(4) the student’s pilot training record for each first solo flight and for each flight test recommendation for approval.
The students of course are the ones referred to in (2). (3) and (4) don't stand alone, other wise they make no sense. Technically speaking again, its why (2) and (3) end with semicolons, Your elementary school teacher was correct when she said that knowing about punctuation was going to matter in the future.

Most importantly redlaser is patently wrong in his view of the requirement for the additional paperwork. It is not specified anywhere in the CARs, or mentioned in the FIG. The only place where such paperwork might be legally required is if it was specified somewhere in the FTU's OM, which is possible, but unlikely and would be specific to that particular FTU.
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digits_
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Re: Class 4 instructors

Post by digits_ »

Shiny Side Up wrote: So you're right in that the progress checks can be more than the minimum as specified in (2) and if they are more then (3) specifies that the results of said checks must be recorded.
This is where I disagree. 3 only states to fill out the transport canada form with room for a list of first solos and ppl recommends.

If , for example, the class 2 instructor wants to fly with the student before he goes on his first solo navigation flight, or before his first x-wind landing or whenever he likes, he can do that. That can also be different for every student (since it is not specified that it can't)

Where does it say that there needs to be a record of these extra records that the class 2 demands ?

Note that the form in (3) only talks about first solo and recommends. The class 2 instructor is allowed to fly with the student on his first lesson, and then never fly again with him again. Wouldn't be very smart, but is legally allowed. Which leads me to conclude that (2) and (3) are separate requirements.

The results in (3) talk about the results of the first solo and the flight test recommend. Eg: a crash on the first solo won't count. A failed ppl recommend won't count either. It doesn't specify that, but there is no reason to believe it is linked to the results of (2).


The semi colon is there to establish the "and" relationship the end of (3), to clarify that all the items are required, and it is not an "or" relationship.
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B208
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Re: Class 4 instructors

Post by B208 »

redlaser wrote:digits_ the form you referred to is the one relating to the upgrade from a Class 4 to a Class 3, it is not the form which has to be filled every day by the Class 4 instructor and signed by the CFI, prior to the Instructor giving flight lessons to his or her student, Direct Supervision by the CFI must be documented, for every flight undertaken by the Class4 instructor, If in doubt check with TC inspector of your flight School.

Red,

What you are describing is either your CFI's or your inspector's requirement. It is not mandatory, nor is it likely to be upheld at tribunal or in a court of law.
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Re: Class 4 instructors

Post by redlaser »

Case and point can a Class 4 provide instruction to a person who owns his own aircraft, No he can't, therefore his licence is invalid unless authorised by a higher class of instructor, and he, the instructor is under direct supervision
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